mucking cards

[frazer]

I"m hoping someone can clear this up for me please. I was playing in a game a couple of nights back and two players were all in ak v aq the player with ak had about 1000 chips behind so wasn"t going to knocked out whatever.

   The flop came q q ten naturally to the ak players dismay , the turn was a blank two or three cant remember and with this the ak player threw his cards into the middle of the table, still face up. Now we"ve all been there he was so in engrossed in his oppenents hand he missed his own draw. I moved his cards back to him and reminded him that a jack would give him a straight his hand wasn"t dead.

  Then the fun began when the river was a jack , the a q player said that the ak player mucked his hand before the river therefore the pot was his. Of course I don"t have enough time to repeat the lively conversations that ensued but it was decided that it was a friendly game , or as friendly as a poker game can be, and that the ak player should keep the pot. When the dust settled I said that if that had happened in a casino the dealer may have taken a different view , but I honestly don"t know. I"ve seen most things on a poker table same as all of you but never this. Can anyone on this forum let me know what the correct ruling should have been. Thanks Frazer.

[Santino67]

As far as I know Frazer, if the money"s all in then the cards should be on their backs anyway so the board should be played out. The cards should already be in the middle of table once the all-in/call is announced so jack should stand and straight wins.

May get corrected on here though, see what others say.

[Paulie_D]

As far as I know Frazer, if the money"s all in then the cards should be on their backs anyway so the board should be played out. The cards should already be in the middle of table once the all-in/call is announced so jack should stand and straight wins.

This.^^

The player with AK hasn"t mucked or folded. He"s put his cards face up on the table....he"s tabled his hand.

Now he might have done it in an unorthodox manner but so what? The game is called poker...not gotcha!

[HaworthBantam]

As far as I know Frazer, if the money"s all in then the cards should be on their backs anyway so the board should be played out. The cards should already be in the middle of table once the all-in/call is announced so jack should stand and straight wins.

This.^^

The player with AK hasn"t mucked or folded. He"s put his cards face up on the table....he"s tabled his hand.

Now he might have done it in an unorthodox manner but so what? The game is called poker...not gotcha!

Definitely this ^^

[KarmaDope]

I"m assuming this is a tournament?

If so, money"s all in. Cards are required to be "on their backs". Cards speak, so AK player wins the pot.

[Tiger-flash]

I"m assuming this is a tournament?

If so, money"s all in. Cards are required to be "on their backs". Cards speak, so AK player wins the pot.

+1, if not all in he has thrown them down in disgust (tabled his hand) but mucked if he"s thrown them face down

[Paulie_D]

if not all in he has thrown them down in disgust (tabled his hand) but mucked if he"s thrown them face down

Nope....if the are clearly identifiable as his cards then they are live.

In fact, (IMHO) the only person who can actually muck a hand is the dealer and he does so by burying the cards into the muck pile.

Cards thrown face up or face down on the table are live until the dealer "officially" mucks them.

Some house rules state that the dealer can "muck" a hand by first touching the cards to the muck pile but in general this should be discouraged as it causes confusion about accidental "mucks".

[frazer]

As far as I know Frazer, if the money"s all in then the cards should be on their backs anyway so the board should be played out. The cards should already be in the middle of table once the all-in/call is announced so jack should stand and straight wins.

This.^^

The player with AK hasn"t mucked or folded. He"s put his cards face up on the table....he"s tabled his hand.

Now he might have done it in an unorthodox manner but so what? The game is called poker...not gotcha!

When both players were all in the cards were still in front of them face up and not pulled into the middle of the table as would normally happen. After the turn the ak player thought his hand was dead so he picked them up and threw them into the middle of the table. But they stayed face up. Are you suggesting that if they had fallen face down his hand was mucked at that point irrespective of anything else. No one was trying to trick anyone or catch them out its something that happened and I would like to know the exact ruling . thanks frazer.

[AMRN]

It"s a tournament - best hand wins, simplez.   Whether they land face up or down after he chucks them in is irrelevant - the dealer has seen the hand, it is a face up showdown, and the best hand after the river wins.

Would probably be somewhat different in a cash game....

[frazer]

Thanks to everyone that has replied to this issue , I think I have got some clarity regarding this matter now. Would I be right , after reading the replies , in assuming the following :

      A player cannot muck his all in hand it remains live at all times . If a player after the flop lets say thinks he"s lost leans over the dealer turns his cards over and walks out the dealer must continue. If then the player that has walked away then wins the hand all the chips are put in front of his seat and then blinded out as they would be in any game where the player is not present.

     Alternativly if the dealer is the only person who can legitimately muck a hand he surely would only do this if the player who has walked away cannot possibly win the hand after the flop or turn.

    Once again thanks everyone in I think you would agree is an unusual situation. Frazer.

[Paulie_D]

A player cannot muck his all in hand it remains live at all times . If a player after the flop lets say thinks he"s lost leans over the dealer turns his cards over and walks out the dealer must continue. If then the player that has walked away then wins the hand all the chips are put in front of his seat and then blinded out as they would be in any game where the player is not present.

Basically yes.

Alternativly if the dealer is the only person who can legitimately muck a hand he surely would only do this if the player who has walked away cannot possibly win the hand after the flop or turn.

A good dealer will only muck a losing hand after all the cards are out and there is a clear winner.

Just because (after the flop) a player might be drawing dead doesn"t absolve the dealer from dealing the entire board.

Funny things happen in poker. If it turned out that the winning player had three cards or there were duplicated cards (which I"ve seen) then the whole thing could be unwound.

Most of the stuff above applies to tournament poker and cash play MIGHT be different.

In all instances, protect your action...turn your hand over and see all the cards and don"t let them go until you are sure of the result.

[Tiger-flash]

if not all in he has thrown them down in disgust (tabled his hand) but mucked if he"s thrown them face down

Nope....if the are clearly identifiable as his cards then they are live.

In fact, (IMHO) the only person who can actually muck a hand is the dealer and he does so by burying the cards into the muck pile.

Cards thrown face up or face down on the table are live until the dealer "officially" mucks them.

Some house rules state that the dealer can "muck" a hand by first touching the cards to the muck pile but in general this should be discouraged as it causes confusion about accidental "mucks".

Thanx for clearing that up pauline, i thought i was wrong....again

[Zozzy]

Thanks to everyone that has replied to this issue , I think I have got some clarity regarding this matter now. Would I be right , after reading the replies , in assuming the following :

      A player cannot muck his all in hand it remains live at all times . If a player after the flop lets say thinks he"s lost leans over the dealer turns his cards over and walks out the dealer must continue. If then the player that has walked away then wins the hand all the chips are put in front of his seat and then blinded out as they would be in any game where the player is not present.

     Alternativly if the dealer is the only person who can legitimately muck a hand he surely would only do this if the player who has walked away cannot possibly win the hand after the flop or turn.

    Once again thanks everyone in I think you would agree is an unusual situation. Frazer.

An exception to this rule would be if the player throws his hand into the middle of the muck face down in a manner whereby his cards can"t be identifiable from the other cards in the muck i.e. not retrievable,
I presume  ?

[Paulie_D]

An exception to this rule would be if the player throws his hand into the middle of the muck face down in a manner whereby his cards can"t be identifiable from the other cards in the muck i.e. not retrievable

I presume  ?

This is the heart of the matter...

If you aren"t folding (which is a whole other issue) but are "mucking" (i.e. giving up any claim to the pot)...and your cards are clearly identifiable...they are live.

[zzBlizzardzz]

AK wins end of. You can"t muck your cards on an all in. If he had thrown tham in the muck cards then thats a different story. But he dint he threw them in the middle face up. In cash you have the option not to show your cards till the end, but its perfectly all right to turn them face up if you want, in a tournament you have to turn them face up. Either way AK wins.