Am I Playing this right?

[RicayBoy]

This was (in effect) my exit hand at the Goliath and a virtually identical situation came up in an online qualifier last night. I won the hand last night, but the opponent wasn"t impressed with the play.

I can"t remember the exact chip counts but in both cases I had a similar chip stack to my opponent, we were both around 30/35 blinds deep and the blinds were worth winning.

Early position (pretty solid) villain sticks in a 3.5 x raise. It is a larger raise than the table norm which is around min plus/2.5 x

I am on the button with   and decide to call the raise as I don"t want to be shoved on if I re-raise.

The flop comes   and the villain leads out with another big bet of around 75 pc of the pot. Now I think that barring a set, that"s about as good as it gets for 10 10 and shove. The villain has to call 23 x (ish) into a 46 x (ish) pot and on both occasions they insta-called and showed  

The first time I missed, the second time I hit a six and won the pot.

Question 1: Am I playing this situation optimally - If not what should I be doing? Can I afford to just call the flop bet? Should I ever be folding on that flop?

Question 2: Should it always be an insta-call from my opponent? My image is not overly loose and I can have quite a few hands that are already beating him? I suppose 2/1 means that he does?

Any views gratefully received.

[AMRN]

No problem with your play at all.    If you were to 3-bet pre, you should do so with a plan, and given that he has made a huge raise UTG, and with your read that he is a "solid" player, it should be safe to assume that he won"t be folding to your 3-bet, and if he"s any good he won"t be flatting either.... so if you 3-bet here, expect to be 4-bet..... and if you fold to a 4-bet, then you have turned a semi premium hand into a bluff.

I much prefer to call here and play the hand in position post flop, plus you are getting reasonable implied odds to set mine given you are both 30+ deep.  Assuming he c-bets 100% of flops though after a big UTG raise, you will probably have some tough decisions to make before the hand is over!

Short of the flop being TTx, it is pretty much ideal and gives you the perfect semi bluff opportunity, and your stack is perfectly sized for the shove.

As to whether his call was correct or not, ask yourself if you would ever fold in his spot with QQ.....  

[mporter123]

Do we know if we were nearer 30 or 35 BB"s? Also when the blinds are going up?

I am not sure that it is profitable to be calling in this spot pre flop given stack sizes. Its going to leave us with tricky decisions post flop when an Ace/King/Queen/Jack peel off and we have no idea where we are. Unless we have a plan of what to do when this happens then I dont think we are quite deep enough to just set mine.

We cant 3 bet here either as we are rarely beating anything that 4bets apart from AK.

I am a nit so could prob find a fold pre here given reads on opponenet and bet sizing. Stack sizes are just bleurgh though, would prob flick the call in pre in annoyance. Flop plays itself.

[TheSnapper]

I"m also in the fold pre camp, we do not have the implied odds to set mine and we put ourselves in a spot where we"ll most likely win small or lose big.

[deanp27]

Meh seems fine/standard to me

[AAroddersAA]

It"s always hard with these without any stats but assuming our opponent is a fairly standard APAT level player.

What is a reasonable range for us to give our opponent preflop? (do we have any stats on PFR or PFR from EP?) Given than he has raised bigger than normal it"s reasonable to assume a strong one (I know strong is supposed to mean weak etc, but it doesn"t). So How strong of a range do we give him. The early position should make it stronger again. What hands are in this range, certainly AA,KK and QQ. I also think we could include AK and maybe AQs. How do we fare against that range?


   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    61.721%     61.52%    00.20%          40030820       129347.00   { QQ+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 1:    38.279%     38.08%    00.20%          24778038       129347.00   { TcTd }


OK so we don"t like that. What if we add AQos and AJ


   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    53.953%     53.76%    00.20%          60751860       221277.00   { QQ+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1:    46.047%     45.85%    00.20%          51817650       221277.00   { TcTd }

This is still a fold

If we add JJ, 99 and 88


   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    50.846%     50.64%    00.20%          72838680       294597.00   { JJ+, 99-88, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1:    49.154%     48.95%    00.20%          70405662       294597.00   { TcTd }

OK now we are nearly 50/50 but I think our range is far to wide here and our hand plays terrible against this range post flop anyway.

So fold pre without implied odds. It"s not really a spot where you can lose a small pot or win a big one and as other have said it"s really hard to know where you are post flop.


As played it"s easy, get it in on the flop. We have flopped golden and become a favorite against all of the above hand ranges.

[Fatcatstu]

After we see the result it is obv much easier for us all to find reasons to fold pre, but in reality, don"t we all flat call and then get it in on the flop in that situation? I reckon most of us probably would.

[George2Loose]

Meh seems fine/standard to me

[AMRN]

After we see the result it is obv much easier for us all to find reasons to fold pre, but in reality, don"t we all flat call and then get it in on the flop in that situation? I reckon most of us probably would.

Exactly.

35x deep.... I think it"s overly nitty to be chucking TT away on the button against a single raiser.

[dwh103]

After we see the result it is obv much easier for us all to find reasons to fold pre, but in reality, don"t we all flat call and then get it in on the flop in that situation? I reckon most of us probably would.

Exactly.

35x deep.... I think it"s overly nitty to be chucking TT away on the button against a single raiser.

+1

Against very specific opponents who would double-barrel with overs you could perhaps take a risk and call flop. However the line you"ve taken is totally standard.

[RicayBoy]

Thanks very much for the posts. I must admit folding pre was not something I had seriously considered, but I suppose if I consider my opponent very tight I have enough to chips to wait for a better spot and of course avoid any difficult decisions post-flop.

Whilst the flop was a good one for me, if I put his opening range as say pairs 88 and better, AK and AQ and possibly AJ s (I"m virtually never putting him on nothing), it does mean that a couple of his possible starting hands 88 and 99 that I was crushing pre flop have now overtaken me.

Would a tightish player always C-bet that flop with AK or AQ or would he just give up and check fold to live to fight another day knowing that I would almost always be ahead of him? Should I have taken the hint with the big C-bet or is it just impossible to fold 10 10 there. I"m still 38 pc against AA KK or QQ but a bigger dog (31 pc) against JJ and now 88 and 99...

[AMRN]

Would a tightish player always C-bet that flop with AK or AQ or would he just give up and check fold to live to fight another day knowing that I would almost always be ahead of him?

You have pegged him as a decent player. no decent player would open 3.5x preflop, then just check/fold the flop without having a go at it. I would expect either a c-bet or a check/raise, perhaps a check/call, but never a check/fold.

Should I have taken the hint with the big C-bet or is it just impossible to fold 10 10 there. I"m still 38 pc against AA KK or QQ but a bigger dog (31 pc) against JJ and now 88 and 99...

Once you have decided to play the hand preflop, you can never ever fold to a c-bet on this flop.

[deanp27]

Why can"t a decent player check/fold a flop that hits a preflop cold caller"s range?

Don"t think c-betting this flop with ak would be 100% standard at all as the preflop raiser

[PantsMan]

After we see the result it is obv much easier for us all to find reasons to fold pre, but in reality, don"t we all flat call and then get it in on the flop in that situation? I reckon most of us probably would.

Exactly.

35x deep.... I think it"s overly nitty to be chucking TT away on the button against a single raiser.

Agreed. Amazed how many people are folding here. And at the range people are putting the raiser on. Wonder if they"d do the same with Jacks?

And if people are throwing away tens on the button against a single raiser can you let me know when you"re next playing please. I"ll be the one raising every hand with garbage knowing you"re not getting involved unless you have JJ+, maybe AK.  

[TheSnapper]

After we see the result it is obv much easier for us all to find reasons to fold pre, but in reality, don"t we all flat call and then get it in on the flop in that situation? I reckon most of us probably would.

excellent point