Can We Check Back A Set On A Wet Board In This Scenario?

[MintTrav]

Tournament in Gunwharf Grosvenor last night.
£20 + 2 optional rebuys/add-ons.
5000 chips starting - same for rebuy/add-on.
54 runners.
Chips in play 675k.
7 paid. Prizes 1.£850, 2.£620, 3.£410, 4.£290

4 left - stacks approx:
UTG 275k
Button (me) 250k
SB 120k
BB 30k

6,000/12,000/500

UTG raises to 35k.
I have 99. Good spot to reraise prob but, against the other big stack, I decide to flat-call with position and see what the flop brings.

SB folds.
BB calls and is all-in.

Main pot 114k.
Side pot 10k.

Flop 89T - two spades.
UTG checks.

Obv I would almost always bet here, though short-handed the chances of being outdrawn are less. UTG may have a hand to pay off plenty or he might just fold if I bet. If he calls, I may lose or win a lot of chips by the end.

I"m not a fan of checking down, but in this scenario it has merits. If the BB has draws, he will get to see whether they come in no matter what I do, so I might lose the main pot anyway. I am almost certainly ahead now, though don"t fancy being check-raised here, esp by a drawing hand that isn"t going to fold and might get there by the end. So checking back would be more for pot control than to eliminate the small stack.

Bet or check? If I bet, it is difficult to find an amount that would put UTG off possible draws without playing for stacks, so I could just shove and hope he doesn"t have QJ.

Betting is the obvious play, but is there any merit in checking behind here?

[mporter123]

Without read, IMO its definitely a slam dunk 3bet pre and would be happy to get it in against the big stack. I would probably click it back to 80K ish, call off his jam and win a race for the lot. Tiny BB stack may change how we play some hands here but two nines are way to strong to do anything else with.

As played I dont see any other option than to bet and get it in on this flop. I am never checking back a set here. I would probs bet 60-70K and hope he jams all his semi bluffs.

Gunwharf finally getting their act together for poker then? Been to the casino a few times and never much in the way of tournaments going on.

[George2Loose]

Jam pre

Jam now

[Fatcatstu]

Jam pre

Jam now

+ a squillion

[Mikeyboy9361]

Defo see a case for flatting Pre, but never checking back here, its all going in quicker than a very quick thing!

[deanp27]

Dislike pre, especially as one player behind is so short they can"t reopen the betting. Its a clear jam from me.

Obvious answer is to bet/jam now and I probably would. I"d only ever check if I knew it would induce villain to do something daft on the turn (which is unlikely given almost dry sidepot) so I"d just bet to protect/for value now

[AMRN]

In another thread where UTG opens to 3.5x, where UTG and Btn are both 35x deep, I advocated calling from the Btn with TT.... lots of people said this was really bad because we were only getting around 10/1 to set-mine....... in this scenario, we are only getting around 7/1...... I hope opinions from the other thread carry over!

Personally, regardless of the short stacked BB, I"m shoving this all day preflop. You seem to want to avoid a clash with the other big stack.... well I"m sure he would also want to avoid a clash with you, given the 4 stack sizes.

Shove pre.

As played, open shove flop.

[deanp27]

Yeah but in the tens hand I wouldnt be calling just to set mine, certainly not set mining here either.

[AAroddersAA]

In another thread where UTG opens to 3.5x, where UTG and Btn are both 35x deep, I advocated calling from the Btn with TT.... lots of people said this was really bad because we were only getting around 10/1 to set-mine....... in this scenario, we are only getting around 7/1...... I hope opinions from the other thread carry over!

Personally, regardless of the short stacked BB, I"m shoving this all day preflop. You seem to want to avoid a clash with the other big stack.... well I"m sure he would also want to avoid a clash with you, given the 4 stack sizes.

Shove pre.

As played, open shove flop

Yay, I am now lots of people, I have only ever been one person before. :-)

OK, I believe this to be a different spot (and you have also suggested a different play Steve :-) ). By shoving we increase our stack size by 20% if he folds this play was not available in the TT hand.

Because we are short handed here his range SHOULD be much bigger (although the bet sizing is still strong, John does not mention if this differs from the table norm though - if it does it might make a difference but ranges are still likely to be wider). The fact we only have four players means that his range could well look like the below:-

Any pair say 66+
Any suited Aces
Any two broadway cards

We are about 50/50 against that range but the shove folds out lots of hands that we would be flipping against. If we shove we MIGHT only get called if we are beaten (but as I said above this is not likely I think at least hands like 77 & 88 call as well of lots we are flipping with AK, AQ, AJ etc) if we have this range accurate we make chips anyway (if this is ICM suicide tell me, I do this a lot, but it is +cEV).

Without any further reads I think shove pre is best. Shove>fold>call

As played, simples - Jam now as you are unlikely to pick up a c-bet into a dry side pot. If he folds you increase your stack by around 50%. If he calls you are likely to be ahead anyway.

Also, just a point to Mark, I dislike clicking it back (we are never folding if we do) because he maybe shoves some hands that he would fold if we shoved (AQ and AJ being possible examples also KQs and KJs type hands) and we end up in a race where it would have been much better to just take down the pot preflop. Again my thinking could be off here would like to here different opinions. What are the advantages to clicking back over shoving?

Cheers

[mporter123]

Also, just a point to Mark, I dislike clicking it back (we are never folding if we do) because he maybe shoves some hands that he would fold if we shoved (AQ and AJ being possible examples also KQs and KJs type hands) and we end up in a race where it would have been much better to just take down the pot preflop. Again my thinking could be off here would like to here different opinions. What are the advantages to clicking back over shoving?

Cheers

This is the exact reason why I like clicking it back. Never with the intention of folding but I wanna give him the opportunity to jam all his pocket pairs 88 and below and random Ax type hands that we are in great shape against. This may involve more races against overcards but think we crush him enough of the time that I prefer it to just shoving.

[deanp27]

Not clicking it back in a £20 live game because he"ll peel some of the time which puts us in a tricky spot witha vulnerable hand. You are probably thinking too high level for the general standard of play in my experience

[Pitchie]

I"m never flatting ~20bb"s pre with 99 in this spot. Get them in the middle!

Now we hit this flop I also lead out and call the all in.

[AAroddersAA]

Also, just a point to Mark, I dislike clicking it back (we are never folding if we do) because he maybe shoves some hands that he would fold if we shoved (AQ and AJ being possible examples also KQs and KJs type hands) and we end up in a race where it would have been much better to just take down the pot preflop. Again my thinking could be off here would like to here different opinions. What are the advantages to clicking back over shoving?

Cheers

This is the exact reason why I like clicking it back. Never with the intention of folding but I wanna give him the opportunity to jam all his pocket pairs 88 and below and random Ax type hands that we are in great shape against. This may involve more races against overcards but think we crush him enough of the time that I prefer it to just shoving.

He MAY jam 77 or 88 (it"s a bad play but I make enough of them so he might too). He probably still folds Ax (we are talking A9 and below here). When did you last see Ax 4-bet jam at APAT level (it"s rare, might happen at higher levels). Ax folds if you click back and it folds if you jam. There are not many hands you can trap here and be happy about it.

He is far more likely to 4-bet jam hands you are a coin flip against than hands you crush, but he may well have folded these hands to a shove (this is still bad as it should be obvious you are not folding but people will do it), which you don"t want. I am only going to click it back in this spot with a really big hand here (maybe just AA).

[MintTrav]

I thought the flat steps in prize-money might influence some of the replies. Most tournaments have accelerating step-ups, so there is a big incentive to finish 1st. Usually a 1st + a 4th in repeat tournaments would outweigh two 2nd places, whereas in this two 2nds are equal to a 1st + 3rd.

Could also mention that this tournament always ends in a 2-way, 3-way or 4-way chop around 3-3.30am, and it was 3am, so it was unlikely that it would play out to a winner. [Not enforced by the casino - it"s just what the players there always do].

[Please provide all information etc - yeah I know].

[I Q8Holds I]

Defo see a case for flatting Pre, but never checking back here, its all going in quicker than a very quick thing!

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