Match Structure

[WYoung83]

Yes ok, point taken about people railing their team mates. i know its a big part of the team spirit. I did say Get a life and go to bed as tounge in cheek though.

[Curlarge]

I guess that sadly there isn"t a way of running a "dummy game", otherwise we would be able to predict roughly when we would finish if we re-introduced the 5k/15m game with the current 320 or so runners.

Would it be significantly quicker than week 1 with 220 less players?  Surely it has to be.

My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.

I"d really like to see us go back to the week 1 structure with the assumed reduced field of 300 odd and see where it takes us, because TBH we are all guessing really and this is the only way we can be sure of the facts.

I"m sure Achim could "sell" this to his team for 1 week. If it proves to be a 2am finish then we simply make it 5k/12m for week 5 which will take at least an hour out of the game, with 5 levels and hour instead of 4. The 5k stack appeals to most players and also allows the required finish time.

One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.

We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.

The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.

Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.

[GiMac]

I guess that sadly there isn"t a way of running a "dummy game", otherwise we would be able to predict roughly when we would finish if we re-introduced the 5k/15m game with the current 320 or so runners.

Would it be significantly quicker than week 1 with 220 less players?  Surely it has to be.

My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.

I"d really like to see us go back to the week 1 structure with the assumed reduced field of 300 odd and see where it takes us, because TBH we are all guessing really and this is the only way we can be sure of the facts.

I"m sure Achim could "sell" this to his team for 1 week. If it proves to be a 2am finish then we simply make it 5k/12m for week 5 which will take at least an hour out of the game, with 5 levels and hour instead of 4. The 5k stack appeals to most players and also allows the required finish time.

One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.

We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.

The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.

Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.

Great post.

[GiMac]

My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.

This

One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.

We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.

The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.

This

Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.

Personally I don"t think there was much wrong with last weeks 4k/12min structure, although maybe adding a few earlier levels would perhaps placate those that want a bit more play early on. However, I think your proposal of reverting back to the week 1 structure with the smaller field size is a fair compromise. I don"t think many had a problem with the structure itself, I just think the bigger than expected initial field size caught everyone out, hence the late finish & that"s unlikely to be a problem going forward.

[Sef]

I guess that sadly there isn"t a way of running a "dummy game", otherwise we would be able to predict roughly when we would finish if we re-introduced the 5k/15m game with the current 320 or so runners.

Would it be significantly quicker than week 1 with 220 less players?  Surely it has to be.

My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.

I"d really like to see us go back to the week 1 structure with the assumed reduced field of 300 odd and see where it takes us, because TBH we are all guessing really and this is the only way we can be sure of the facts.

I"m sure Achim could "sell" this to his team for 1 week. If it proves to be a 2am finish then we simply make it 5k/12m for week 5 which will take at least an hour out of the game, with 5 levels and hour instead of 4. The 5k stack appeals to most players and also allows the required finish time.

One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.

We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.

The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.

Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.

like

[Sugar_Free]

The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.

100% in agreement with this

[AMRN]

My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.

Just out of curiosity, why do you believe that this structure and starting stack mean that a 3x raise to 2% of starting stack is more likely to get "called all over the place"?      Surely as it represents a larger percentage of stack than a 3x raise to 60 in a 5k tournament, people will be less included to call quite so freely?     And if you really do feel that people will "call all over the place" in this particular structure, then surely you just raise with a narrower range and adjust?

[mylesfdo]

I guess that sadly there isn"t a way of running a "dummy game", otherwise we would be able to predict roughly when we would finish if we re-introduced the 5k/15m game with the current 320 or so runners.

Would it be significantly quicker than week 1 with 220 less players?  Surely it has to be.

My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.

I"d really like to see us go back to the week 1 structure with the assumed reduced field of 300 odd and see where it takes us, because TBH we are all guessing really and this is the only way we can be sure of the facts.

I"m sure Achim could "sell" this to his team for 1 week. If it proves to be a 2am finish then we simply make it 5k/12m for week 5 which will take at least an hour out of the game, with 5 levels and hour instead of 4. The 5k stack appeals to most players and also allows the required finish time.

One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.

We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.

The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.

Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this GREAT post Curly and totally makes sense.....late reg could even be 120 mins as Stars offers that in most of their bigger mtt"s anyway

[Chipaccrual]

	Runners	Runtime	Finish Time
Week 1	547	8hrs 8mins	3:08
Week 2	454	5hrs 46mins	12:46
Week 3	331	5hrs 21mins	12:21

Just to make the point again, the number of runners is not the main factor in how long the tourney will run.  Week 2 and 3 were identical structures.

We saw a 27% drop on plater numbers, and this reduced the runtime by 25 minutes (which is about 7%)

I would suggest that a Week 1 structure with Week 3 runners may see the finish time cut by an hour, but, if as a lot of people are suggesting that players stopped playing because the structure changed, then the reduction may not be that great.

It"s a tricky dilemna, and I agree with plenty of points from both sides of the discussion.

Where I cringe, is when this gets taken so seriously and becomes so personal from different people.

I think we all want to get the best possible league for as many players as possible, but I"m starting to think that we need to sell the film rights to Mr Cruise so he can make Mission Impossible V  

[AJDUK]

Did any of the captains actually agree to the original change - other than Achim? There seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors in play here.

Would not like to see this Sunday evening tournament drift back into Sunday afternoon. 7pm is about the earliest I would consider playing and late regging is not for me.

Agree with what Curly says about the 1500 chip slow structure. Unfortunately not everyone reads the game like AMRN and understands that 30 chips is still a 3BB raise, so 6-10BB raises is inevitable early doors.

Having 90-120 mins late reg just extends the game by adding in tons more chips. Scrapping late reg altogether and reverting to 5K/15 mins/7pm start would probably give us a 1.30am ish finish with the current numbers.

[samson]

For me week one was too deep and finished too late, however with 200 fewer runners the structure probs needs tweaking again.

People making comments such as not going deep often enough to worry about a late finish is frankly a bag of *******.
I play tournies based on how much time I have to play them and expected finish time, not to waste buyins cos I will be out early (even if that is the case often)

This is a weekly league game, not a deepstack event. All that happened in the first week was players folded for 3 hours until the blinds were big enough to play hands.

The newer structure isn"t a crapshoot, but players need to learn to adjust to it. These games are still lasting 6 hours, longer than previous seasons on other sites

[Honeybadg]

	Runners	Runtime	Finish Time
Week 1	547	8hrs 8mins	3:08
Week 2	454	5hrs 46mins	12:46
Week 3	331	5hrs 21mins	12:21

Just to echo this - if you go back to 5k/15mins - even with a field half the size you will very likely only finish 30-45mins earlier.

My earliest posts were very much keep this great structure - but it is too late a finish to be planning for any/each week.

5k/12mins - would very likely finish by 1am - as would some other structures.

Looking forward to week 4/5

L

[mylesfdo]

looks like the structure for this week has been changed.....looks much better now.......wp APAT for listening and see you all on Sunday in League and UKIPT Satty

[Des]

Ty Myles.

Just to confirm, we have added three new levels to the 4k / 12m structure, which should retain a 1am finishing time while offering more play in the opening two hours.

The DTD £1m Guaranteed UKIPT satellite will run alongside match 4 (starting at 8pm), to the same structure.

[lucasj37]

Ty Myles.

Just to confirm, we have added three new levels to the 4k / 12m structure, which should retain a 1am finishing time while offering more play in the opening two hours.

The DTD £1m Guaranteed UKIPT satellite will run alongside match 4 (starting at 8pm), to the same structure.

Ty Des, seems like a sensible compromise. I will be playing.