Getting reads online without the HUD

[AAroddersAA]

Hi Everybody

I have been catching up on the strategy board and have noticed that almost all post involve the numbers provided by the HUD. I know this is because its probably the best tool we have for getting online reads but it is not the only one. Somebody said we should have a thread for this so I thought I would start one. The sort of things this could involve are:-

1) Bet sizing tells - What sort of things should we be looking out for with regard to bet sizing
2) Betting Patterns - What is a strong line and a weak line on different boards
3) Timing tells - Do they exist and do you use them

Anything else that anybody can think of I will post my thoughts later on today but will wait and see if anybody else wants to add anything to the discussion first.

[mporter123]

3) Timing tells - Do they exist and do you use them

The only thing I have been doing for a while now is taking the same amount of time on 90% of the decisions that I make at the tables. On Stars, a buzzer goes after 4-5 seconds to remind you to make your decision. Every time I open, 3 bet, or pretty much make any action, I wait until a millisecond before that buzzer goes and then act. It helps me concentrate when I multi table and stops me rushing things. Also think it stops the classic timing tells.

[AAroddersAA]

3) Timing tells - Do they exist and do you use them

The only thing I have been doing for a while now is taking the same amount of time on 90% of the decisions that I make at the tables. On Stars, a buzzer goes after 4-5 seconds to remind you to make your decision. Every time I open, 3 bet, or pretty much make any action, I wait until a millisecond before that buzzer goes and then act. It helps me concentrate when I multi table and stops me rushing things. Also think it stops the classic timing tells.

In your opinion what are the classic timing tells?

[AMRN]

I think timing tells are generally over-rated. So many people who play online are playing multiple tables, and how do you know if a delayed action is because a player is thinking about what to do, or if he is playing hands on twelve other tables at the time. Similarly a very fast action might be because he doesn"t have time to think about his decision as he has action going on elsewhere.

The only real tells I base decisions on online are around bet sizing and historic action (if I have notes on a player, but my note taking is generally poor because I"m playing too many tables).

For me the HUD is an essential tool - without it, it"s like driving round a blind corner on a foggy night, with no lights on the car...... and you can bet your bottom dollar that most of the folk you are up against are using a HUD against you, which means they can drive that same corner with fog lights on, GPS, and radar tracking!

[deanp27]

If you are playing MTTs the OPRing every opponent and noting it can be useful. I"d also be careful with HUD stats in MTTs

[AMRN]

I"d also be careful with HUD stats in MTTs

Very relevant. I"ve set up my MTT HUD to only show current blind level. Nothing worse than coming up against someone late on in an MTT, and seeing stats that are all gained from early levels in prior tournaments - can give a completely false picture.

[Jon MW]

I"d also be careful with HUD stats in MTTs

Very relevant. I"ve set up my MTT HUD to only show current blind level. Nothing worse than coming up against someone late on in an MTT, and seeing stats that are all gained from early levels in prior tournaments - can give a completely false picture.

You also have to play against regulars - regularly - to get a decent sample size.

It doesn"t necessarily have to be a statistically relevant sample size, but the smaller it is the more I"d be inclined to think you"d be better off ignoring the numbers and just going with your general perception of how you"ve been seeing them play  in this particular tournament.

(to an extent this is obviously true for cash as well - it"s just a lot more likely that you"ll come across players who you have little or no data on)

[AAroddersAA]

Deans advice is very good, checking the OPR of players. Obviously you can"t do this on Pokerstar"s as it is against their T&C"s but if you see player regularly I suppose there is no issue with searching OPR whilst you have Pokerstar"s closed down :-)

Setting the HUD for the currently level in tournaments is also good as play will vary as you go through the tournament.

Anything people notice on betting patterns as for me these are the main thing that can be used.

[mporter123]

[AAroddersAA]

On a side note does anybody think that OPR and Sharkscope will be removed soon?

For me some of the best online tells to look out for are:-

1) The quick check call, when somebody is checking and calling quickly it often means a draw and if they check the river to you it is a good opportunity to bluff if you need to or just take a showdown with a marginal hand.

2) Bet sizing, especially in PLO cash players will bet full pot with their strong hands but a lesser amount with marginal hands and can often be taken off the pot with a raise in a spot where they are likely not too strong anyway.

3) What will certain players do on certain boards is a player likely to be representing the flush or does he really have it, fits in with the last one a bit as a lot of time players bet smaller when an obvious draw hits as they get scared of it and you can again represent it.

Does anybody want to add anything else?

[WYoung83]

 I think yesterday PTR blocked the stats and money won/lost from stars players. would not be surprised to see OPR doing the same. But as far as i know, you are allowed to check OPR while playing on stars.

If you dont mind me saying, you can get a lot from Avatar pictures, Somtimes you can insta spot a mile off if someone is gonna be fishy, they mayaswell have a $ above their head. Does anyone else agree? If someone has a picture of a baby, for example they are probably over 30 and usually just recreational and probably bad imo. Likewise if its some blokes face wearing sunglasses, then he is probably new to poker and maybe not so good, a decant player wouldnt have his mug on display (unless its the face of a stars pro). And then there is the clasicc AA picture. Dont think a decant reg would ever have that as their avatar.

[noble1]

On a side note does anybody think that OPR and Sharkscope will be removed soon?

For me some of the best online tells to look out for are:-

1) The quick check call, when somebody is checking and calling quickly it often means a draw and if they check the river to you it is a good opportunity to bluff if you need to or just take a showdown with a marginal hand.
timing wise when a villain takes a lot of time he could be thinking about a bluff or slow playing something, so when a villain calls very fast, obv he didn"t take the time to think about raising, so he is probably not slow playing a hand mostly/in general depending on board textures etc.....
2) Bet sizing, especially in PLO cash players will bet full pot with their strong hands but a lesser amount with marginal hands and can often be taken off the pot with a raise in a spot where they are likely not too strong anyway.
agreed its something to look out for, if the villain usually then bets big on turn with his strong hands 2pair+ then when he bets half pot he maybe/probably on a semi bluff or maybe light value betting something, if you have been watching which lines and bet sizes have worked on him by other players to get him to fold in the past then it should be +ev to attempt to raise him off whatever on the turn or river ip or oop. [board texture dependent plus dynamics to be taken into account of course]
3) What will certain players do on certain boards is a player likely to be representing the flush or does he really have it, fits in with the last one a bit as a lot of time players bet smaller when an obvious draw hits as they get scared of it and you can again represent it.
ip or oop? Rodders... i"d guess you are going on about range elimination, eg - simple logic, if the villain usually check calls flush draws and the flop is 2suited and he is betting out then he generally won"t have a flush
OR if he check calls bottom and 2nd pair but then you see villain donk betting then usually you can eliminate those from his donking range... or on certain boards you can use simple logic to eliminate strong hands from a villains range, eg - you bet flop and villain calls, you check the turn and he checks behind, perhaps the board texture is scary and typically villain would have bet the turn when checked to with all his strong hands, so if you bet river and he re-raises then he could be/likely bluffing or turning something thin into one likewise if you check river also, villain maybe bluffing/thin value betting to much thus setting up a bluff check raise for you or a thin one that beats his thin one ...
bet sizing is an interesting one because if you can work out there bet fold sizing, and obv you have seen them bet fold turns or rivers previously in the past then you can take advantage of that [but dont over do it ]

Does anybody want to add anything else?

on the subject of river check raises/re-raises and this may not be quite as effective in the lower stakes, if you get clued up to the subtle time differences that an opponent takes on the flop for instance, when they check raise/re-raise the river it has normally been thought about before that river action...
On the opposite side, if they check raise/re-raise the river as a bluff, a vast amount of the time its a knee jerk thought of in the moment reaction, so along with timing and betting patterns that you may of picked up on the flop and turn, then you can pick these river bluffs off with a lot better success rate.. eg - they are calling a draw and a different one gets there, they may well dwell even just a split second longer than normal and then bluff...
the river usually is a guessing game BUT sometimes you can pick up a subtle clue as to if the check raise or re-raise was conceived/thought about on a earlier street or if it was just a sudden knee jerk reaction on the river.


there are plenty more reads you could note surely, keep badgering the forum Rodders

[samson]

Personally think timing tells are largely irrelevant nowadays with so many players multitabling. Think it probably player dependant i.e. somebody you have played against before and noticed similar timings for particular bets/situations