MTT : AJ on SB against passive limper

[Jabreck]

Hi everyone,
I"m new member of APAT and i"m going to try to post a first hand on a poker forum
I speak French so i hope you could easily understand my poor english (Don"t hesitate and give me also english advices !!!)
So here the hand comes
It"s on the final table of a 1$ tournament with 64 players (8 places paid)
UTG is TAG, CO/BTN/BB are Loose Passive

NL Texas Hold'em Tournament
5 players

Stacks:
UTG (20364)
CO (44995) - VPIP: 34, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: 6.3, Hands: 117
BTN (39160)
SB - Hero (25130)
BB (30351)

Blinds: 600/1200/120

Preflop: (2400, 5 players) Hero is SB with  
1 fold, CO calls 1200, 1 fold, Hero raises 4800, 1 fold, CO calls 4200

CO often limps (with hand like Q9o, 98o, J6s but also AKo or 88). When I raise him, he usually folds. I already steal his limps several times without any problems. When he sees the flop, he often checks to the river if he doesn"t hit the flop (i never see him slowplaying a big hand) and I suppose he bets if he hits it (I just see the showdown two times when he bet (with double pair and overpair 99)). I saw him semibluffing one time on the flop with 23 (he was BB) on flop 455 (he won and showed his hand). Unfortunately, I didn"t see him playing a hand when he would have called a raise...
His Limp/Call is unusual.

Flop:   , (12600, 2 players)
Hero bets 6600, CO calls 6600

I thought that was a nice flop for a C-Bet. But was it a good idea with my stack?
His call on the flop is a unusual line from CO... I thought he would raise or fold and it"s would be easy decision for me. I don"t know what is his range on this spot. My idea with his limp/call preflop was he had a pocket pair 22-1010 or AK-10, KQ-J, QJ, J10 probably suited. With his call on the flop I think he was unlikely to have a Q (because he would probably raise) so I thought he had a middle pair ,slowplayed a set or maybe a flush draw. I decide to give this hand up.

Turn:   (25800, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River:   (25800, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 25800, Hero folds

Again his bet on the river is unusual. Why would he bet with a middle pair? Does he have a full house or a missed flush draw? Should I call? i fold because he is unlikely to bluff because of his passivity during the whole game.

Total Pot : 51600

CO wins 25800 from pot
CO wins 25800 from main pot

So, my questions :
            - What about my raise preflop? I had already stolen his limp with the same amount (in and out of position) but was it big enough (around the pot)? or another amount would be better?
            - What about my C-Bet? Was it a correct play regarding stacks? Would it be better to check again this passive opponent and hope to see the showdown freely?
            - What about his shove on the river? Did I have to pay?
            - Any other comment about the hand?

Don"t hesitate if you need some extra informations about the hand

[deanp27]

I"d probably jam pre with 20bbs and antes in play

[AMRN]

Your stack size is too small to be 3betting from the SB, then c-bet/folding the flop....

What are you trying to achieve with your preflop raise?  Having limped, with stack sizes the way they are, and with him having position post flop, it"s always likely that a limper will see value and call in this spot, meaning you are then playing a bloated pot out of position with a dangerous stack size.

Shove or fold pre, but I would say your stack size is perfect for the shove, and AJ is huge 5 handed against a serial limper.

[deanp27]

Being picky but it"s not a 3bet.
The reason I jam is that he hardly ever has a strong hand and you pick up enough to make avoiding a tough spot with a shallow stack worthwhile.

[AMRN]

Being picky but it"s not a 3bet.

Picky bugger!!  

[mporter123]

You speak English better than most English people.

As played just check fold the flop and look for a better spot to get them in. We can jam pre really wide here and pick up the chips.

I wouldn't give too much credence to the HUD stats, not enough hands to make real judgement calls and short handed play will sku stats. They only really help pointing out the fish in MTT"s - a good indicator in this case.

[AAroddersAA]

Being picky but it"s not a 3bet.
The reason I jam is that he hardly ever has a strong hand and you pick up enough to make avoiding a tough spot with a shallow stack worthwhile.

This, you are also likely to have good equity against his calling range..
Most of the time you just take it down which shows a big long term profit.

[Jabreck]

Thank you for your answers I realize that was a easy shove to avoid troubles after the flop.

Another question : If I had been button instead of SB, would it have been a shove with 20BB? I mean I stole his limp several time raising 4BB with hand like Q9s or 78s with the intention to fold against a shove from the limper or the blinds. So shouldn"t I do the same thing with AJo? (I would probably fold against a shove with AJo on this table because they was usually passive). And if i raised 4BB in this situation and the limper call, should I check to the river?

[AMRN]

Thank you for your answers I realize that was a easy shove to avoid troubles after the flop.

Another question : If I had been button instead of SB, would it have been a shove with 20BB? I mean I stole his limp several time raising 4BB with hand like Q9s or 78s with the intention to fold against a shove from the limper or the blinds. So shouldn"t I do the same thing with AJo? (I would probably fold against a shove with AJo on this table because they was usually passive). And if i raised 4BB in this situation and the limper call, should I check to the river?

the massive difference is that you would have position post flop, and would be in a much better spot to play the hand in whichever way you choose.

If you were the button, and you feel you have an edge over the limper, then there is just no point shoving here as if he calls, you have negated your edge and are trusting to luck.  I would 3b, but certainly not to 4xbb - just no need for it to be that big. I would 3b to 3x at most - with the stack sizes, this should be enough to get rid of the blinds and to isolate the limper - it also means that your cbet post flop doesn"t need to be as big, and you can come away with more of your stack intact if you end up having to let go.

[deanp27]

I"d still shove

[AMRN]

I"d still shove

Perhaps.... and I probably would as well.

Just trying to respond to the point about the difference between being on the button as opposed to be in the small blind.... by having position, you have more choices, and different ways to play the hand. From the SB, the only choice that makes sense is to shove.

[Jabreck]

I would 3b, but certainly not to 4xbb - just no need for it to be that big. I would 3b to 3x at most - with the stack sizes, this should be enough to get rid of the blinds and to isolate the limper

I understand that a raise to 3BB is enough to isolate but isn"t it give him too good odds to call with any two cards? Then it is more difficult to "read" his hand, isn"t it?
Should I make different bets according to my cards? For example whan i steal with 98s i don"t want to be paid, does it make sense to raise bigger? I don"t like this because i could give a read on me.

I"d still shove

It"s not dangerous? SB or BB could wake up with a big hand. I could save a big part of my stack if one shoved and I had raised just 3-4BB. I"d fold because they wouldn"t shove with less than AJo

[AMRN]

I understand that a raise to 3BB is enough to isolate but isn"t it give him too good odds to call with any two cards? Then it is more difficult to "read" his hand, isn"t it?

If he has worse than AJ, and he is out of position to you, why would you ever want him to fold?..... in this instance, when we have the best hand and more importantly, position, we want him to make the bad call.  The ideal scenario is that the blinds fold, and the limper makes a bad call - and with the stack sizes as they are, 3xbb seems like an appropriate raise size to achieve this.

Should I make different bets according to my cards? For example whan i steal with 98s i don"t want to be paid, does it make sense to raise bigger? I don"t like this because i could give a read on me.

I"m an advocate of keeping bet sizes to the same standard, regardless of the cards, or whether you"re betting for value or to steal. If you bet one amount to steal, and another amount for value, the more observant players will pick up on your trends, and you then become very exploitable.

[Fatcatstu]

It"s not dangerous? SB or BB could wake up with a big hand. I could save a big part of my stack if one shoved and I had raised just 3-4BB. I"d fold because they wouldn"t shove with less than AJo

It seems to me that you are really hung up on what cards your opponent has. Yes it is important, but you seem to me to be in danger of being beaten before you enter the hand as you are just assuming that someone will have a big hand.

I am a massive supporter of grinding stacks up by taking down lots of small pots pre flop. Occasionally people do wake up with hands, but Steve has given you the answer to this, raise smaller pre and then re evaluate on the following streets.

[deanp27]

Position is important but with effective stack sizes as they are there won"t be multi-street betting or decisions it is not quite as important. He is likely to check his entire range to you on the flop so you may still end up punting your stack off postflop if you don"t hit the flop.