APAT Staking Exchange - Discussion

[Matt D]

Interesting idea. I like it, and think the regulation of the system is a step in the right direction for this kind of thing.

I"ve a couple of quick questions:

If someone requests staking on APAT, does the request have to remain exclusively here? Or can it also be offered out on other staking sites, via friends and on facebook etc?

If the latter, how does the 1% fee work? Say the horse offers up 50% for sale on APAT, but only manages to sell 25% and sells the other 25% "off forum".

edit: typo (excusively > exclusively).

[Des]

Interesting idea. I like it, and think the regulation of the system is a step in the right direction for this kind of thing.

I"ve a couple of quick questions:

If someone requests staking on APAT, does the request have to remain excusively here? Or can it also be offered out on other staking sites, via friends and on facebook etc?

If the latter, how does the 1% fee work? Say the horse offers up 50% for sale on APAT, but only manages to sell 25% and sells the other 25% "off forum".

A good question.  APAT should only retain a commission on winnings earned by stakers on the APAT Staker Exchange.  That said, part of the attraction of trying to build the exchange is to lessen the requirement for players to seek funding in several different places.

[Chipaccrual]

Interesting idea. I like it, and think the regulation of the system is a step in the right direction for this kind of thing.

I"ve a couple of quick questions:

If someone requests staking on APAT, does the request have to remain excusively here? Or can it also be offered out on other staking sites, via friends and on facebook etc?

If the latter, how does the 1% fee work? Say the horse offers up 50% for sale on APAT, but only manages to sell 25% and sells the other 25% "off forum".

I was thinking about that question a few hours ago, then got tied up with something else.  Nice post Matt  

[mylesfdo]

Still a bit confused how this is gonna work !!

Can I as a backer offer a stake to be run and request for applications with stats etc? i.e $150 to run 10x$15 45 mans on Stars on a 60-40 split my favour?  If so do I ship funds on Stars and have winnings shipped back?  What is APAT's cut of this?  How would I know that Im shipping to right id on Stars as well?

As a Horse can I offer up a BAP with shares?  Using above example I offer up BAP with 150 $1 shares raising the $150 needed to run the set.....I personally buy 50 shares and sell the remaining 100 to backers......BAP closes after set of 10 run with BR of $500......I retain $166.50 (500/150=3.33x50=$166.50) and balance is distributed between backers according to number of shares bought........how would APAT's cut be calculated on this?  OR is this not allowed and stake requests can only be requested on a mark up basis?

I would be tempted to keep it simple to start off with Myles.  Ultimately each proposal will be valued on its own merits but give the relative inexperience of members to this type of initiative, then the simpler the better.  As successes are recorded, I would imagine more complex proposals will get a greater degree of response.  As for APAT's share, you would pay 1% of total staker winnings to "staker@apat.com" via PayPal.

Thanks for reply but didnt really answer questions!!.......mainly can I offer up a stake as a backer rather than always requesting to be backed?......sometimes its nice to have horses earning you $$ when u havent got time to play!!....also on this subject would there be a requirement for horse to keep an updated rail?

In regards to BAP tbh imho I think this is the simplier way of running it!!......shares are sold at x amount......they have a closing value of x amount....rather than all this 1.1 mark up malarky its far simpler!!....just my opinion obv!!

Sorry I misunderstood your original post. 

Yes, as a Staker you can initiate a post seeking players to invest in.  The only stipulations being that responding players have to be licensed on the board, they should get their details to you via the Staker Request form, and you need to fund them in advance of the events taking place. 

When returning their winnings to you, the players would at the same time pay 1% of their winnings to APAT.  As stated above, you are not proposing to pay a premium and that"s fine also.  It may be less attractive to longer term winning players, but ultimately it"s a free market and premiums may be less important in online staking, where travel and accommodation costs do not need to be factored in.

I would encourage all Stakers to request rail updates from their players.  Ultimately that will appeal more to some players than others, but it would be up to you whether you made it a condition of the deal.

Ok great thks.....so as staker you dont lose any of your winnings if I read correctly?

Where do u post stakes available then?

Correct, this service is entirely free to Stakers.

Just post a new topic in this board.  Head it "online players required" or similar.  Include your topline proposal and requirements (licensed players, payment terms, reporting etc).  Use PM"s to sort out account details etc.

Done.....pls just have a read through and let me know if anything not in order....apologies in advance

[AMRN]

If OPR is to be used as part of the reference, those licensed to be staked will need to Opt-In on Stars to have their OPR stats freely viewable.

[fandango]

If OPR is to be used as part of the reference, those licensed to be staked will need to Opt-In on Stars to have their OPR stats freely viewable.

^^^^^^ +1 ^^^^^^ agree 100%

[s4ooter]

So, ive only been following this thread half heartedly as it was going.

Im confused at what the £10 is for?

I know its to "process your application", but what is it to be used for (please say Team Winners Medals from last year?!!?!? )

I just find it unusual to see why the charge is there, if you want to deter idiots flooding the forums, then you could still have the application AND the 1% fee, and just dont give status to those you dont want to hold it.

CMU, PTP etc didnt require a Join Up Fee?

Ive always held APAT in good regards due to the value they offer to their members, dont understand why all of a sudden you want to charge people to post a stake request?

If i have missed all these answers prior, apologies.

Dann

[deanp27]

So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.

[Paulie_D]

So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with 60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

Agree.

[KarmaDope]

CMU, PTP etc didnt require a Join Up Fee?

PTP (don"t/never used CMU) charge a lot more and IIRC, as it"s been a few years, charge both staker and stakee. They also charge per BAP.

The £10 seems to be mainly as a deterrent to stop grimmers. And as an added bonus, it helps APAT, when the sponsorship market right now is a bit poo, to say the least.

[Des]

So, ive only been following this thread half heartedly as it was going.

Im confused at what the £10 is for?

I know its to "process your application", but what is it to be used for (please say Team Winners Medals from last year?!!?!? )

I just find it unusual to see why the charge is there, if you want to deter idiots flooding the forums, then you could still have the application AND the 1% fee, and just dont give status to those you dont want to hold it.

CMU, PTP etc didnt require a Join Up Fee?

Ive always held APAT in good regards due to the value they offer to their members, dont understand why all of a sudden you want to charge people to post a stake request?

If i have missed all these answers prior, apologies.

Dann

The £10 is there for a few reasons. 

One is to take a few of the cowboys out of the mix.  We don"t have the time to be going through lots of verifications, which we would end up doing if this was a free service.  Cowboys aren"t going to be worrying about the 1% fee, they"ll just do a runner if they win.

Secondly, the fee adds another level of verification, in that we get provided with the player"s name and address through PayPal, which is helpful if we don"t know who it is.  It"s something else to cross check elsewhere and if some of an applicant"s story doesn"t add up, we won"t license the player.

Thirdly, we"re far from perfect, but in the six years that APAT has been around we"ve tried to do things right.  This feels like us doing the right thing.  The other sites may offer a free service, and we have no interest whatsoever in competing with them.  This is not about volume, it"s about being able to keep some level of control over what is posted on this forum, particularly where money might be concerned.

Last but not least, we"re having to go through a bit of a mindset change at APAT.  We"ve offered high quality registration free poker for five years before this season, but the sponsorship market has changed considerably and for that reason we need to adopt a wider commercial outlook.  APAT cannot be in a position whereby it relies on one poker site for its operating budget.  Our strategy needs to evolve to ensure APAT generates revenue so that we can resource our development in a much greater way, grow and create an even bigger and better tour.  So we"ve added a fee with sensible justification for players looking to find funding to step their game up, but we"ve kept the service free for players willing to invest in some of the talented players that we have at APAT. 

I think the Exchange is a good win win scenario. It"s on strategy for APAT and it introduces a nice new quality service for our members.  Hopefully players will both stake and play, but ultimately it"s your decision.

[Des]

So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.

Completely agree and we"ll need to do a bit of educating in this particular area.  That said, I think it will help to have a couple of offers up so that players can get a sense of how it should all work.

[mal666]

Mr Evilpies mark-up calculator.

Staking explained, by Evilpie

I"ll have a crack at explaining it for you Dreenie:

One way of staking is to buy a set amount yourself and sell the rest to backers. You pay for a certain amount of the entry yourself and then sell the rest at a markup of your choosing. Personally I don"t mark up but that is entirely up to you to decide.

Say you play a £500 comp and sell half of your action:

You pay £250 yourself and get the rest from stakers. If you sell at even money 1:1 you just get the other £250 off them.

If you sell at 1.1:1 you charge them £1.10 for every £1 they buy. The £250 you sell will therefore cost stakers £275 total. This obviously means that there"s only £225 left to pay so you save yourself £25. The more you mark up the less you pay yourself.



When you have 100% staking for a set amount of equity you can work out the effective mark up as follows:

Say the comp is £1000

You sell 100% for 70% equity. This means that any winnings go 70% to the staker and 30% to you.

This means that effectively they are only buying 70% of you which is £700 worth but it"s costing them £1000

If you divide 1000 by 700 this will show you the mark up, in this case 1.43

To work out the mark up of set equity you just have to invert the actual percentage expressed as a decimal if that makes sense?

50% = 0.5 = 2:1
60% = 0.6 = 1.67:1
70% = 0.7 = 1.43:1
80% = 0.8 = 1.25:1
90% = 0.9 = 1.11:1

Other things alter this such as offering stake back first before splitting profits and obviously being on a long term make up deal makes a huge difference.

One off stakes can be worked out as above though and are generally very bad for the staker and require a lot of luck to work out well.



Generally speaking if you put some of the money up yourself and don"t charge a markup you have a good chance of selling. You are taking a risk yourself so backers know you"ll be trying your best.

If you ask for 100% of the money you are taking on no risk at all yourself so it becomes harder to sell unless you are extremely good or are well liked and can sell to friends.

If you ask for 100% staking for 50% equity you"re very unlikely to sell except to friends. The odd $10 comp would be fair enough but a biggy would be very poor value for the staker. A £1000 comp for example the staker is effectively paying £1000 to put you in to a comp where the prizes they stand to win are equivalent to a £500 comp. Obviously when staking a friend value isn"t priority number one so it"s still possible.

Hope that helps a bit.

[nosey-p]

So not to derail particular staking threads, the guidelines indicate we should state the premium in terms of mark up (ie 1.1 etc) and i think this is the best way of being open about the premium being charged on the stake, whilst negating the need to state whether the return includes stake back or not. I also think it makes the 1% calculation easier that goes to APAT.

Current threads are stating in terms of 100% staking but with60/40 return etc. personally think the board should have a universal way of stating the premium (I would use decimal method).

I mean 60/40 on a 100% stake is a HUGE markup (about 1.67) and established pros would struggle to sell at that rate and I think stakers should know this before this board gets established.

Dean

This is the first time for me and APAT to ask for staking, so was not sure what to ask for. This was a kind of lets post and see what response I get. I and others will learn what is expected in terms of %/decimals and will ask for staking accordingly. You are right about the mark up but can I point out this is at half the price. You could say that I have been lucky, to get staked at that mark up, with me being first it has got a novelty factor to it. As the bigger players come along I"m sure a request like this will not get taken up. 

Wayne

[AJDUK]

OK I"m thinking it"s just me that doesn"t know this but what does BAP stand for?

Don"t get me wrong, anyone with decent BAP"s is always gonna raise interest, but what does it stand for?