What will the impact be on APAT of new poker clubs?

[evilpie]

I was just wondering what effect clubs like DTD will have on the future of APAT live events?

There are weekly £50, £75 and £100 events at DTD with approx £2.5k first prizes as well as the monthly £300 2 day event (10000 starting chips) with a 1st prize last month of £13.5k!! These events surely must be seen as direct competition for the APAT tournaments.

I guess at the moment it"s not a major problem as there"s only the one place but surely with the apparent success of DTD there will be more of these clubs appearing all over the country.

I understand that there are added benefits to winning an APAT event such as the trophy, prestige and obviously any GUKPT seats etc. but will that be enough to secure APAT's long term future?

I"m not trying to be a prophet of doom or anything but I was just curious to know what strategy APAT have in place to cope with all the competition that is likely to come their way. Will there be any changes or will the APAT tournaments remain as they are and assume that recent success will continue?

What do other members think? Are you as likely to travel from London to Edinburgh for an APAT event if a DTD crops up somewhere in your area?

[APAT]

You might be misunderstanding APAT's role in UK poker Matt.  We welcome any venue where tournament poker is played in a competitive but friendly manner, with a good structure, sensible rules and added value for players.  APAT has removed the requirement for registration fees at our live events and we would like to see that rolled out further; we were glad to see Genting Stanley following suit for their upcoming series of live events for example.  So on the whole, APAT welcomes positive developments from the likes of DTD, Virgin and Sky Poker, who have promoted some great events for recreational players over the last six months.  APAT will continue to push the bar higher though and this will be evident in S3.

[APAT]

One additional point.  DTD is unique and it is unlikely that anything on its scale will be launched again in the near future, for cost and licensing reasons.  APAT was one of the bodies that provided evidence of demand on behalf of DTD at their court case late last year.

[evilpie]

One additional point.  DTD is unique and it is unlikely that anything on its scale will be launched again in the near future, for cost and licensing reasons.  APAT was one of the bodies that provided evidence of demand on behalf of DTD at their court case late last year.

Not too sure about this?? I know DTD is unique but that"s only because it"s the first one of it"s kind. I can guarantee that if it makes enough money then someone will get a license and do another one bigger and better within a year or two. I"ll bet the big casino chains already have plans drawn up just in case they spy an opportunity. The same happens in all industries and once one company has a license it"s easier for the next.

It"s good to know that APAT will be "raising the bar for S3". This was really what I was getting at. I know that APAT have been pioneering in helping to develop UK poker but it"s inevitable that as more poker tournaments appear the demand for each one will drop off a little bit.

I guess this won"t be a problem in the near future as demand for APAT (and other) events seems to easily outstrip supply. If we look at say April / May though and this is just for tournaments that I know of (and I don"t know much) there"s a regional on April 5th, Virgin Festival on the 12th/13th, Scottish or DTD £300 on the 3rd May, regional on the 17th May. This is a lot of live tournaments 3 of which are 2 dayers. It"s impossible (ok then, difficult) to do them all so something has to give.

Whilst demand outstrips supply these events and clubs will keep cropping up more frequently until one day someone doesn"t fill all their seats. I know this is unlikely to happen for a long time but like i said it"s nice to know that APAT are "raising the bar" and keeping things moving.

[Jon MW]

... I can guarantee that if it makes enough money ...

Simple answer - it won"t.

It may be hugely popular, but it won"t be hugely profitable because of the standard they provide and the cost of providing it.

[evilpie]

... I can guarantee that if it makes enough money ...

Simple answer - it won"t.

It may be hugely popular, but it won"t be hugely profitable because of the standard they provide and the cost of providing it.

When the place first opened I couldn"t see how it could possibly make any money but having been there on several occasions I"m not so sure. They often have 20 cash tables running at once all raking up to £7 per hand. If they average £2 per hand and they play say 40 hands per hour that"s £1600/hr off the cash tables and I think they are fairly conservative numbers.

Then there"s the tournament entries and stts which won"t be much but I"m sure cover the dealers wages.

Add to this the food and drinks that are all well priced and I think the balance sheet would make interesting reading.

I"m inclined to agree with you but I"d love to know the actual figures.

[Jon MW]

... I think the balance sheet would make interesting reading.
...

Oh yes, I"d agree with that - but then I"m a maths geek

[APAT]

It"s the minus £4m column that would take my eye.  

[kinboshi]

... I can guarantee that if it makes enough money ...

Simple answer - it won"t.

It may be hugely popular, but it won"t be hugely profitable because of the standard they provide and the cost of providing it.

When the place first opened I couldn"t see how it could possibly make any money but having been there on several occasions I"m not so sure. They often have 20 cash tables running at once all raking up to £7 per hand. If they average £2 per hand and they play say 40 hands per hour that"s £1600/hr off the cash tables and I think they are fairly conservative numbers.

I think they"re wildly exaggerated numbers. 

When I"ve been there, at least half of the tables have been 50p/£1 or £1/£2 tables - and the rake isn"t anywhere near the figures you"ve mentioned.  For one, it"s capped on those tables, and secondly you"re forgetting any hands that are mis-dealt, or taken down without a flop, etc.

Also, 40 rakes hands an hour sounds wildly optimistic to me.

Rob didn"t open DTD to make him millions.  It has to be run to make a profit, but whether it will or not is another question.  Also, if it does make a profit, how long will it take to make a dent in the debt he"s incurred getting it up and running?

[Geo]

... I can guarantee that if it makes enough money ...

Simple answer - it won"t.

It may be hugely popular, but it won"t be hugely profitable because of the standard they provide and the cost of providing it.

When the place first opened I couldn"t see how it could possibly make any money but having been there on several occasions I"m not so sure. They often have 20 cash tables running at once all raking up to £7 per hand. If they average £2 per hand and they play say 40 hands per hour that"s £1600/hr off the cash tables and I think they are fairly conservative numbers.

I think they"re wildly exaggerated numbers. 

When I"ve been there, at least half of the tables have been 50p/£1 or £1/£2 tables - and the rake isn"t anywhere near the figures you"ve mentioned.  For one, it"s capped on those tables, and secondly you"re forgetting any hands that are mis-dealt, or taken down without a flop, etc.

Also, 40 rakes hands an hour sounds wildly optimistic to me.

Rob didn"t open DTD to make him millions.  It has to be run to make a profit, but whether it will or not is another question.  Also, if it does make a profit, how long will it take to make a dent in the debt he"s incurred getting it up and running?

I think that you need to bear in mind how much of that debt was due to the delays, courts etc.

As Matt mentioned, once one is successul i does make it easier for others to obtain the neccessary licenses etc.

Not saying that they will, but Rob"s efforts have certainly paved the way for others.

Geo

[kinboshi]

It"s only the casinos, or a mad-man like Rob who can afford to open a poker club on the scale of DTD.  The casinos make more from the pit games than poker, and so why build a dedicated poker club?

Hopefully though, it"ll inspire the casino chains to invest in their card rooms and try to emulate what DTD is. 

Imagine how much DTD could earn if they added pit games and slot machines...

[tumblet]

 Imagine how much DTD could earn if they added pit games and slot machines...

I dont think many people would have a problem with it either, if any.. If people want to play the casino games they can, DTD get some more revenue which I would imagine would go towards poker slightly more than the casinos..

Im sure poker players would prefer to see pit games and the club stay open than close due to lack of revenue from poker alone..

[DJKebab]

I thought when they went up against the local casinos in court they made guarantees that they would never run any table games or slots? Mind you, not sure if it was a legally binding agreement or not...

[HaworthBantam]

As far as I"m aware, DTD does have a license that permits slots etc, but have decided against installing them.

[kinboshi]

 Imagine how much DTD could earn if they added pit games and slot machines...

I dont think many people would have a problem with it either, if any.. If people want to play the casino games they can, DTD get some more revenue which I would imagine would go towards poker slightly more than the casinos..

Im sure poker players would prefer to see pit games and the club stay open than close due to lack of revenue from poker alone..

Rob said he"d never introduce them.  He did offer LCI an agreement for them to withdraw their objection to DTD if he signed something to say that DTD would never offer pit games.  I think LCI withdrew their objection anyway, and so I don"t think (but I certainly don"t know for sure) he legally isn"t in a position to introduce them if he really wanted (or needed) to.

There is actually an issue with a poker club having slot machines and pit games.  It syphons money from poker.  Take an example where someone wins £300 in a cash game or tournament, and then they leave the poker room.  They come back next time, sit down and play poker, and the other players have a chance to win that money (that stays "in poker").  There"s obviously the chance to win the money if the player hangs around on that evening and continues to play rather than leaving with his winnings.  This £300 came from other poker players - it"s "poker money".  Obviously, he might also decide to spend some of the money outside poker.  That"s going to happen of course.

BUT, if he has the "opportunity" to walk over to the roulette or blackjack table with his winnings, where he"s most likely to lose some of his money, then this money is lost forever from poker.

The more this happens, the more likely it is that these people will stop playing poker - as they"ll run out of money to play with, or they"ll no longer want to keep on going to their reserves to fund playing poker.  This could be a winning poker player, but if he"s losing on the pit games, his bottom line will reflect this.

Look at TJ Coultier.  He"s won over $8 million in poker tournaments (I think), and who knows how much outside the major tournaments?  But he has an achilles heel that is the craps table.  I"ve heard he"s been "busto" many times due to this.  That money he"s lost hasn"t gone to other poker players, and stayed within the "poker economy" - it"s gone forever from the players and into the pockets of the casinos.