Ruling

[WarBwastardo]

Have just read issue 33 of Poker player.  Nick Wealthall wasn"t whinging as such in his column for a change, but I think the claim he makes in his column is wrong.  It concerns a hand he played in a cash game in the Bahamas. 

Nick and a mateyboy get all their chips in on a flop of Ace-9-4.  Nick holding Ace-King  thought this was a good flop for him, but the mateyboys instacall made him think otherwise.

Mateyboy was indeed in better shape with aces up.  Both players then table their cards face-up and wait for the dealer to deal 4th and 5th street.  This is where it all goes bandy.

The dealer for some reason decides to take mteyboy"s ace-9 and plonk it in the muck.  Obviously consternation is then expressed via some colourful language from mateyboy followed by a request politely to please fish the cards out and deal the remaining community cards.

The dealer apologies, fishes them out, deals and no help for Nick, the pot is shipped to mateyboy.

Nick in his article suggests that once the dealer took the cards and mucked them, he then should be awarded the pot as technically mateyboy"s hand is dead.  But surely this is wrong..surely this only applies if the hand is face down and mucked accidentally. 

How can his hand be declared dead once it has been tabled face-up for all the players and dealer to see, just because they touch the muck, either by the dealer mucking them accidentally or some freak gust of wind blowing them onto the muck?

If both players are all-in and the cards have been tabled face-up and everyone knows what the cards are then they can just be fished out if they"re mucked accidentally no?  

The hand is essentially over as far as play is concerned; the chips are in, the cards have been passed to the dealer, everyone"s waiting for the dealer to deal the final cards...the end is over no?

Cards can only be mucked when the play is still continuing I assumed.  It seems farcical that a card could then be blown onto the muck after a show down and your opponent can claim the pot on such a tenuous technicality.

--Let"s assume Nick the casino was operating under the same rules as you would expect in a UK cardroom.

[AMRN]

all I can say is...... you never have to worry about such silly rulings when playing online!!  

this is just like criminals getting off a charge because some copper forgot to cross a t on the charge sheet.  The guy has made the call and turned his cards over for showdown - how can anyone legitimately claim that the hand is dead cos the dealer screwed up?!

It"s "rules" like this that help me understand why the wild west used to see people die over poker games!!

[kinboshi]

There aren"t any standard rules, which is where the problem is. 

But I"m with you.  If the players are all-in, and the hands have been tabled and have been seen by all the players, I don"t think they can be "mucked".

It seems as though the correct ruling was enforced - well at least the common-sense one.

[RioRodent]

From Robert"s Rules of Poker (the nearest thing there is to a rule book) -

SECTION 2 - HOUSE POLICIES
DECISION-MAKING
1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.

If no other rule covered this situation, then this one does... if all cards have been shown face-up for all to see and then the dealer makes a mistake, obviously the "fair" thing to do is to award the pot to the best hand.

SECTION 3 - GENERAL POKER RULES
DEAD HANDS
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

This may also pour water on Mr Wealthall"s fire.

[HaworthBantam]

There aren"t any standard rules, which is where the problem is. 

But I"m with you.  If the players are all-in, and the hands have been tabled and have been seen by all the players, I don"t think they can be "mucked".

It seems as though the correct ruling was enforced - well at least the common-sense one.

I don"t think there is a general rule for this situation, but you"re right, there should be.

APAT does have a rule in place that should stop this particular scenario occurring, however...

 64.   Tournament venue dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was turned face up and was obviously the winning hand.

Ian