ECOAP ME 1st level

[pokerpops]

... as i have the 2nd best hand in pokers ...

but it"s not really is it? It"s the 2nd best hand preflop - where does it rank on the full scale?

Lovely selective quoting there John. I had mentioned the word Pre hadnt i??

you did, but it"s all a bit pointless since you never have KK

[MintTrav]

the donk lead adds to the already weighted probability of more overpairs than sets

Hmmm, I can see that. Gonna have a think.

[MintTrav]

If they do both have a pocket pair that you"re beating then it"s a mistake to fold

Can"t argue with that.

if one of them is beating you then it"s a much bigger mistake to call

Or that.

[Fatcatstu]

... as i have the 2nd best hand in pokers ...

but it"s not really is it? It"s the 2nd best hand preflop - where does it rank on the full scale?

Lovely selective quoting there John. I had mentioned the word Pre hadnt i??

you did, but it"s all a bit pointless since you never have KK

Good point well made, i would have probably flopped a straight.


Definately shove.

[TheSnapper]

If they do both have a pocket pair that you"re beating then it"s a mistake to fold, but if one of them is beating you then it"s a much bigger mistake to call and commit your stack - for obvious reasons.

Player A: Folds the best hand sometimes, gives up lots of equity when marginally behind and sometimes when ahead. Is never in a spot where he gets it in bad and gets lucky.

Player B: Is aggressive, seldom folds and gets it in bad sometimes, he embraces variance and is always there when it"s his turn to get lucky.

Q: Which player has more chance of winning tournies?

[Jon MW]

If they do both have a pocket pair that you"re beating then it"s a mistake to fold, but if one of them is beating you then it"s a much bigger mistake to call and commit your stack - for obvious reasons.

Player A: Folds the best hand sometimes, gives up lots of equity when marginally behind and sometimes when ahead. Is never in a spot where he gets it in bad and gets lucky.

Player B: Is aggressive, seldom folds and gets it in bad sometimes, he embraces variance and is always there when it"s his turn to get lucky.

Q: Which player has more chance of winning tournies?

Player C - the player who doesn"t get knocked out before the first break then starts getting aggressive when winning pots , doubling up and knocking players out really makes a difference

[RioRodent]

I think if you are going to 4bet you should make it slightly bigger but it is interesting know whether you were folding to a 5bet.

I"ve changed my mind, I probably call as played

Yes, It was my intention to fold to a 5bet from the German... I wasn"t anticipating a 5bet from the other guy.

As stated earlier my memory for hand details is atrocious, it may have been that the Germans 3bet was slightly less or that my 4bet was slightly more... my usual starting point for re-raising is somewhere in the region of 3x the raise.

In my mind the BB"s range is pretty much all pocket pairs other than AA and KK. With 22 - 44 the least likely... does he see the flop with these? (I don"t)... does he lead out big on the flop with a set? (I don"t usually when I"m not the raiser). I"m thinking 99 - JJ is more likely.

I have no idea what he might think I have, I have never played with him before and I have no reason to believe he has any clue who I am or how i play. He wasn"t Irish or from Portsmouth, so I doubt that John Murray had been filling his head with nonsense about me being a loose player!

I don"t think the German guy is a factor any longer, I don"t believe he has seen a flop with 22 - 44 and I think he would have got it in pre with AA.

I think I"m most likely ahead and decide to call, fully expecting the penny to drop and for him to realise that I do actually have AA or KK and for him to check the turn to me.

German folds.

The turn is a J.

BB immediately looks down at his chips, moves a few of them around, appears to do a quick count and announces all-in.

This time I do fold. He doesn"t show.

[AlanG]

I am with the callers here, because of the donk lead.  If he has a hand that is beating you why would he not play for a check-raise?  If he checks, it is very unlikely to be checked twice behind, so a check is surely the obvious play with AA or a set.

I know strong players sometimes donk their sets for just that deception, but it looks much more like TT to QQ to me.

Interesting spot.

[WYoung83]

In Brendans question, i would say player B is more likely to win more tounrys.

[AAroddersAA]

Fold.

I mean it sucks but what are we beating that plays like this? If this player was somebody like Dan Owston or John Murray (ie Somebody who knows how to properly represent a hand on the right board and also knows you are capable of folding then we have a harder decision - and it"s still a fold). As it we have an unknown player who has cold called a 3-bet which is strange, I guess he could have QQ or JJ trying to keep it cheap, maybe AK? It really looks like that kind of hand or even some SC. When you make a 4-bet he should be able to put you on a decent hand like the one you have. I would have made the 4-bet 3K myself. When he cold calls again I really think he is on a pair. The flop comes down and is silly and suddenly this player who wanted to keep the pot small preflop and should know you have a really good hand suddenly seems to want to play for stacks. If he has QQ or JJ why so cautious pre to take off now, his hand has not really changed and it does not seem like you have AK, he should know you have a big hand. I just don"t see a hand we beat as that likely here. People just don"t play like this in APAT's very often. I think he has got a set (things are usually exactly as they seem at this stage).

As played fold flop. Especially given your reads.

NB If you are not folding I think you get shown a set a LOT here. I also think you have to make a decision on the flop, you play for stacks or fold, if you call the bet on the flop, when he ships the turn you insta call.

[TheSnapper]

If they do both have a pocket pair that you"re beating then it"s a mistake to fold, but if one of them is beating you then it"s a much bigger mistake to call and commit your stack - for obvious reasons.

Player A: Folds the best hand sometimes, gives up lots of equity when marginally behind and sometimes when ahead. Is never in a spot where he gets it in bad and gets lucky.

Player B: Is aggressive, seldom folds and gets it in bad sometimes, he embraces variance and is always there when it"s his turn to get lucky.

Q: Which player has more chance of winning tournies?

Player C - the player who doesn"t get knocked out before the first break then starts getting aggressive when winning pots , doubling up and knocking players out really makes a difference

I disagree John, yes Player C will cash often but he will only turn a small profit imho. He will very seldom have a large stack approaching the bubble and will often point to losing flips at crucial times. Player B will also lose the odd flip but they won"t be terminal as they"ll usually be for a small percentage of his stack.

Oh and btw for more on Player C, see Player A.

[Fatcatstu]

Fold.

I mean it sucks but what are we beating that plays like this? If this player was somebody like Dan Owston or John Murray (ie Somebody who knows how to properly represent a hand on the right board and also knows you are capable of folding then we have a harder decision - and it"s still a fold). As it we have an unknown player who has cold called a 3-bet which is strange, I guess he could have QQ or JJ trying to keep it cheap, maybe AK? It really looks like that kind of hand or even some SC. When you make a 4-bet he should be able to put you on a decent hand like the one you have. I would have made the 4-bet 3K myself. When he cold calls again I really think he is on a pair. The flop comes down and is silly and suddenly this player who wanted to keep the pot small preflop and should know you have a really good hand suddenly seems to want to play for stacks. If he has QQ or JJ why so cautious pre to take off now, his hand has not really changed and it does not seem like you have AK, he should know you have a big hand. I just don"t see a hand we beat as that likely here. People just don"t play like this in APAT's very often. I think he has got a set (things are usually exactly as they seem at this stage).

As played fold flop. Especially given your reads.

NB If you are not folding I think you get shown a set a LOT here. I also think you have to make a decision on the flop, you play for stacks or fold, if you call the bet on the flop, when he ships the turn you insta call.

See my opinion is generally the polar opposite of all of that, and you think about the game a hell of alot more deeply than me.

I honestly think that we are shown anywhere from 99-QQ here the vast majority of the time.

I think that, even more so recently, this is the type of hand that people are showing in APAT's. It has a reputation of being a Nitfest, but i think that has changed somewhat recently.

Qucik question... you say people just dont "play like this" at APAT's (or words to that effect. OK then, so DO people call a raise and a re riase with 22,33 or 44 pre in that case? I"m not too sure they do.

[Jon MW]

If they do both have a pocket pair that you"re beating then it"s a mistake to fold, but if one of them is beating you then it"s a much bigger mistake to call and commit your stack - for obvious reasons.

Player A: Folds the best hand sometimes, gives up lots of equity when marginally behind and sometimes when ahead. Is never in a spot where he gets it in bad and gets lucky.

Player B: Is aggressive, seldom folds and gets it in bad sometimes, he embraces variance and is always there when it"s his turn to get lucky.

Q: Which player has more chance of winning tournies?

Player C - the player who doesn"t get knocked out before the first break then starts getting aggressive when winning pots , doubling up and knocking players out really makes a difference

I disagree John, yes Player C will cash often but he will only turn a small profit imho. He will very seldom have a large stack approaching the bubble and will often point to losing flips at crucial times. Player B will also lose the odd flip but they won"t be terminal as they"ll usually be for a small percentage of his stack.

Oh and btw for more on Player C, see Player A.

Who is more likely to win?

Player A: has a way he thinks will win at poker - he sticks to this plan, he plays like this all the time, he never changes

Player B: changes how he plays depending on the stage of the tournament, the size of his stack, the size of his opponents stack and on how his opponents are playing.

Are you really suggesting that never changing your approach is a better way than moving through the gears?

[AAroddersAA]

Fold.

I mean it sucks but what are we beating that plays like this? If this player was somebody like Dan Owston or John Murray (ie Somebody who knows how to properly represent a hand on the right board and also knows you are capable of folding then we have a harder decision - and it"s still a fold). As it we have an unknown player who has cold called a 3-bet which is strange, I guess he could have QQ or JJ trying to keep it cheap, maybe AK? It really looks like that kind of hand or even some SC. When you make a 4-bet he should be able to put you on a decent hand like the one you have. I would have made the 4-bet 3K myself. When he cold calls again I really think he is on a pair. The flop comes down and is silly and suddenly this player who wanted to keep the pot small preflop and should know you have a really good hand suddenly seems to want to play for stacks. If he has QQ or JJ why so cautious pre to take off now, his hand has not really changed and it does not seem like you have AK, he should know you have a big hand. I just don"t see a hand we beat as that likely here. People just don"t play like this in APAT's very often. I think he has got a set (things are usually exactly as they seem at this stage).

As played fold flop. Especially given your reads.

NB If you are not folding I think you get shown a set a LOT here. I also think you have to make a decision on the flop, you play for stacks or fold, if you call the bet on the flop, when he ships the turn you insta call.

See my opinion is generally the polar opposite of all of that, and you think about the game a hell of alot more deeply than me.

I honestly think that we are shown anywhere from 99-QQ here the vast majority of the time.

I think that, even more so recently, this is the type of hand that people are showing in APAT's. It has a reputation of being a Nitfest, but i think that has changed somewhat recently.

Qucik question... you say people just dont "play like this" at APAT's (or words to that effect. OK then, so DO people call a raise and a re riase with 22,33 or 44 pre in that case? I"m not too sure they do.

Yeah, good point and good post

Generally no, so that"s why it is a good point. He seems to have got stuck with it though. He has called what feels like a small bet of 750 given stack sizes and then been laid odds to call again to the four bet against two players who seem to have big hands. It actually does not make sense that he has 22-44 he at all. It"s just I think he does anyway.

This just feels like a weird spot that does not make sense anyway, we have a player who wants to keep the pot small pre, who now wants to play a big pot. Bet sizing is also worth noting here, I think and that bet feels REALLY strong, it does not feel like QQ to me. QQ makes sense preflop

If we are going with our reads also I don"t see why 99-QQ would be uncomfortable pre-flop and then happy on the flop though, their hand did not improve although it does beat AK now, but why are they trying to fold out AK, QQ should be check/calling (or check/shoving) the flop if it has got this far (which tbh it shouldn"t have). A set would be hoping you can"t get away from your overpair and donking to induce a shove. I may be over thinking this situation of course but everything about this hand, feels like we are beat. It is one of those situations where you are really not sure how you can be beat, you just are. Usually I find when I ignore this and call off anyway (which happen all the time *lol*) I lose :-)

I CAN see the argument that he SHOULD have a smaller overpair a lot more often than a set here and in your average online tournament I probably call with the intention of getting all-in on the turn whatever it is. APAT's still play a little tighter than most other tournaments I am familiar with though.

This might seem strange as I am sure I have spent the last six months telling everybody who will listen, and a few people who didn"t actually want too, that if we see a good spot early (even a marginal one) that we should take it and our tournament life etc does not actually make too much difference at this point. I still stand by that, however I don"t think this is a good spot.

What would be interesting is if any of the updater"s can remember many people getting all-in with hands that one pair beats here. I doubt it happens very often and this player seems to want to get allin.

[MintTrav]