ECOAP ME 1st level

[RioRodent]

[Disclaimer - I"m not too good at remembering these sort things two days later, so some of the bet sizes may not be totally accurate.]

Everyone still has close to starting stack (15k), I only know two people at the table - neither of which are involved in this hand. I had only shown one hand, the first of the tournament, which was AKo and had not been getting out of line or playing lots of hands.

Blinds 25/50

I open to 150 in MP with KK.
German team player [Santo?] directly on my left 3bets to 750.
BB thinks and makes what looks [to me] like a reluctant call.
I 4bet to 1800.
Santo calls.
BB makes what looks like an even more reluctant call, after a bit more thinking.

Pot appx 5400

Flop 234 rainbow

BB quite quickly leads out for 4000 and looks much more comfortable.

I should .................

[MintTrav]

had not been getting out of line or playing lots of hands.

Ha ha - good one Alan.

[RioRodent]

had not been getting out of line or playing lots of hands.

Ha ha - good one Alan.

I put that bit in for your benefit... it is however true!

[Swinebag]

.......Reluctantly fold. You have 1 pair and will need to play for stacks with it if you want to continue, which you don"t want to do in level 1.

This is an awful spot for you with 2 players seemingly happy to treat a deepstack like a turbo. what ever the BB has, you should be happy in the knowledge that he will donk off what ever chips he picks up with this hand. If he has made a set then it is terrible to call a 3 bet then a 4 bet with 22-44 (or anything else for that matter). If he is overplaying an overpair then good luck to him...

I would have probably just flatted the 3 bet and played a smaller pot to be honest but I can see why you 4 bet, given the action before you. (it is just horrible for you that BOTH called the 4 bet)

[Jon MW]

.......Reluctantly fold. You have 1 pair and will need to play for stacks with it if you want to continue, which you don"t want to do in level 1.

This is an awful spot for you with 2 players seemingly happy to treat a deepstack like a turbo. what ever the BB has, you should be happy in the knowledge that he will donk off what ever chips he picks up with this hand. If he has made a set then it is terrible to call a 3 bet then a 4 bet with 22-44 (or anything else for that matter). If he is overplaying an overpair then good luck to him...

I would have probably just flatted the 3 bet and played a smaller pot to be honest but I can see why you 4 bet, given the action before you. (it is just horrible for you that BOTH called the 4 bet)

I have nitty tendencies so I"d agree with this.

I would have played for pot control pre flop and just called the 3 bet, just because it is horrible that they both call the 4 bet - but because of how deepstacked they are, they are almost always going to call the 4 bet. I think every hand that beats you is in their range"s and is only marginally balanced out by the other pocket pairs you"re still beating.

If they do both have a pocket pair that you"re beating then it"s a mistake to fold, but if one of them is beating you then it"s a much bigger mistake to call and commit your stack - for obvious reasons.

[MintTrav]

This hand is over for you imo. This ain"t the EPT - it"s likely that he has hit hard if he is betting that strongly on the flop. No doubt he shouldn"t be there, but he is.

[deanp27]

Meh I think we beat more hands that beat us but at this stage I think I just nit it up and fold. I mean he shouldn"t have a set but you never know what lengths people will go to with 300bb starting to flop a set. Plus people love to play aces this way pre and then panic post flop and spoil the deception.

In game when I don"t understand WTF people are doing I tend to call down and expect to see Jj/QQ as much as anything else but I have learnt not to take off at this stage, therefore might only 4bet pre if I know they are going to call or 5bet with worse.

So fold, probably

[Robbiebox]

FOLD unfortunately.

Some players will call with pairs and connecters here trusting on the implied odds they think they will get if connecting especially when your 4 bet defines a massive hand that may/will pay off.

For what it is worth I am never flatting here the 3 bet. I would however have raised considerably more with the 4bet to price out the small pairs and suited connecters. Say upto 3.5k or 4k so if they call now they are making the mistake and as long as an ace doesnt flop I am sticking them in. Just my way.

[deanp27]

I think if you are going to 4bet you should make it slightly bigger but it is interesting know whether you were folding to a 5bet.

I"ve changed my mind, I probably call as played

[AMRN]

How often does the reluctant call turn out to be a hand like 77/88/99 that then feels happy when the flop comes low? Also, do we really believe the BB would donk lead almost full pot with 22,33,44 in a three way 4bet pot, where someone is highly likely to c-bet?.... I think I probably get it in here, and expect to be ahead of a smaller overpair a lot of the time.

Preflop, I 4bet much bigger.... raising to 1800 doesn"t do anything other than bloat the pot which we are then having to play for out of position against the German guy.

[WYoung83]

i would fold now and hate it, also i wouldnt click it back pre because you are not gonna get folds from a guy who can 3 bet 5x lol. But that is just my opion i would rather call the 3 bet pre. I never see the need to play massive pots 1st few levels when you can loose a big chunk of stack. And if you do win a big pot, i dont think it changes the flow much because everyone is deep anyway.

P.S when i first wrote this for some reason i thought u had AK, but tbh i still stand by what i said even though i can see you had kk.

[Fatcatstu]

I think i re raise to about 2500 here pre, looking to get the pot built as i have the 2nd best hand in pokers

On the flop, i honestly believe that we will be looking at a smaller overpair so much of the time. What are the odds of hitting a set? Not much. So i generally stick it right in his eye in this spot and think we take the chips most of the time.

[Jon MW]

... as i have the 2nd best hand in pokers ...

but it"s not really is it? It"s the 2nd best hand preflop - where does it rank on the full scale?

[TheSnapper]

How often does the reluctant call turn out to be a hand like 77/88/99 that then feels happy when the flop comes low? Also, do we really believe the BB would donk lead almost full pot with 22,33,44 in a three way 4bet pot, where someone is highly likely to c-bet?.... I think I probably get it in here, and expect to be ahead of a smaller overpair a lot of the time.

Spot on, BB can have 22+ AQ+ and read dependent even ATs. But when he donk leads for 4k it"s again very read dependent, he can be trying to protect his overpair or on rare occassions he can be a good player inducing, though the betsize is a little large for that purpose.

Given the donk lead adds to the already weighted probability of more overpairs than sets, I"m never folding here.

Preflop, I 4bet much bigger.... raising to 1800 doesn"t do anything other than bloat the pot which we are then having to play for out of position against the German guy.

Bloating the pot is good for KK, the smaller 4b also induces a spaz with QQ- and can tempt all 22+ to set mine incorrectly. 1800 is a little small though, offering 8/1 implied odds, I prefer ~2200 which lays a paltry 7/1.

I would however have raised considerably more with the 4bet to price out the small pairs and suited connecters.

Price them out yes but these are the hand types we have most equity against. We don"t want them to fold.

[Fatcatstu]

... as i have the 2nd best hand in pokers ...

but it"s not really is it? It"s the 2nd best hand preflop - where does it rank on the full scale?

Lovely selective quoting there John. I had mentioned the word Pre hadnt i??