Cash Game - Line Check

[noble1]

He can have worse Jx hands as well and its vs an unknown. Way more combos of Jx hands than sets.

so all of a sudden all the unknowns readless in ep/mp 6max nlh flat ip all jack x hands 100% of the time? 2 combos of jacks, say they call suited - T Q K  , T Q K - thats 6 combo"s and u assume he 100% re-raises all of these in 3bet pots on the flop? then you assume that he 100% jams all those 6 combo"s on the turn but never checks back the turn ever?

please do some maths marty to prove your point - 7 sets play this line a high % likewise flush draws a lower amount in % terms, so how many club draws do the general population of 25nl have in there mp range that flat the 3bet, and how often do you see them take this line this deep? AKcc AQcc 9Tcc 89cc thats 4 combo"s, do we think is flat 3bet range will have even more clubs that will take this line?
for this to be break even to marginal i"d guess villain would have to be in the ballpark of 30 to 40% air and worse jacks of his total range to be even slightly +ev taking into account that sometimes he might flat the 3bet ip with AA KK AKcc a certain % of the time and still take this line with no reads...


100% ranges - so villain calls 100% every hand possible?

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    51.890%     51.66%    00.23%             31706          144.00   { AdJs }
Hand 1:    48.110%     47.88%    00.23%             29386          144.00   { QQ+, JdJh, 77, 44, AcKc, AcQc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KdJd, KhJh, QdJd, QhJh, JdTd, JhTh, Tc9c, 9c8c, 8c7c, 7c6c, 6c5c, 3c2c, KJo, QJo, JTo }


a tad bit more muck added

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    56.053%     52.25%    03.80%             41902         3046.50   { AdJs }
Hand 1:    43.947%     40.15%    03.80%             32195         3046.50   { QQ+, JdJh, 77, 44, AcKc, AcQc, AJs, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KcQc, KdJd, KhJh, QdJd, QhJh, JdTd, JhTh, Tc9c, T3s, 9c8c, 92s, 8c7c, 7c6c, 6c5c, 63s, 3c2c, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo }

will the opponent 100% flat the 3bet with all of these hands and 100% play all of these fast on the flop and turn?

[Marty719]

He can have worse Jx hands as well and its vs an unknown. Way more combos of Jx hands than sets.

so all of a sudden all the unknowns readless in ep/mp 6max nlh flat ip all jack x hands 100% of the time? 2 combos of jacks, say they call suited - T Q K  , T Q K - thats 6 combo"s and u assume he 100% re-raises all of these in 3bet pots on the flop? then you assume that he 100% jams all those 6 combo"s on the turn but never checks back the turn ever?

please do some maths marty to prove your point - 7 sets play this line a high % likewise flush draws a lower amount in % terms, so how many club draws do the general population of 25nl have in there mp range that flat the 3bet, and how often do you see them take this line this deep? AKcc AQcc 9Tcc 89cc thats 4 combo"s, do we think is flat 3bet range will have even more clubs that will take this line?
for this to be break even to marginal i"d guess villain would have to be in the ballpark of 30 to 40% air and worse jacks of his total range to be even slightly +ev taking into account that sometimes he might flat the 3bet ip with AA KK AKcc a certain % of the time and still take this line with no reads...

Are you assuming that population tendancies at 6m 25nl dnt suggest ppl r going to raise call QJo, KJo?  And yes, I think worse Jx hands can take this line at this level.  I actually think fd"s and combo draws are more likely to take these sizings than sets, but again, very hard to tell without more info. 

I def think there are more club combos that flat pre and take this line as well.  Hands like 6c7c or 7c8c actually make heaps of sense.  I don"t know why we would need to re-read G-Bucks when the whole argument for call is based around our hands equity vs the range we have mentioned from the start of the thread This isnt a range auto-weighted to make it a call, instead a range based on pop tendancies.  It could be argued that leaving out all the Jx hands is ur way of weighting the range towards a fold

Remember noble,

play against his whole range NOT what you hope he has, re-read G-Bucks would be a good starting point if you haven"t already..

PS...I"ve missed this.

[Marty719]

pps...are u advocating fold flop or fold turn?

[noble1]

Are you assuming that population tendancies at 6m 25nl dnt suggest ppl r going to raise call QJo, KJo?

so u think he calls the 3bet 100% of the time with QJo KJo, and that every situation with no reads every type of player that u might come up against in this exact same situation will take this line 100% on the flop with a QJo type hand 165bb deep and again 100% of the time jam the turn but never a certain % give up on the bluff or check the turn to see a free card with his flush draws a certain % ??

i still want to see your maths btw

[Marty719]

Are you assuming that population tendancies at 6m 25nl dnt suggest ppl r going to raise call QJo, KJo?

so u think he calls the 3bet 100% of the time with QJo KJo, and that every situation with no reads every type of player that u might come up against in this exact same situation will take this line 100% on the flop with a QJo type hand 165bb deep and again 100% of the time jam the turn but never a certain % give up on the bluff or check the turn to see a free card with his flush draws a certain % ??

i still want to see your maths btw

I cnt tell if he flats the 3b 100% of the time Its vs an unknown.  I do think the majority of unknowns at these levels will peel pre with these hands tho, esp this deep.  Again, couldnt say if he takes this line 100% otf w/ QJ, but then again, I dnt know that he takes tht flop/turn line with a set.  Its against an unknown, which is y I want to call, and make a note. 

board: 4cJc7h
Hand 1; AdJs                                                                                                            52.01%
Hand 2; QQ-JJ, 77, 44, AcQc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 6c5c, 7c6c, 7c8c, KJ, QJ      47.99%

Even if we take all his QJ hands out, we are still getting the right price.  Don"t get me wrong, Im not in love with stacking off, but I think gng with pop tendancies, it"s going to be profitable in the long term. 

[Marty719]

pps...are u advocating fold flop or fold turn?

[noble1]

why no maths marty?  

look if you think this is ok to stack off with then heyho you keep on doing it, i think you are wrong that so many 25nl players will call quite so many jack x hands pre and then re-raise a strong cbet in a 3bet pot and jam the turn..
overall RIO comes to mind with AJo oop in 3bet pots [no reads another negative] personally i like polarity for spots like this the usual AA KK AK QQ and mix in some suited connectors and low pairs that can either flop big or not at all.. at least if we 3 bet with 44 from the SB and the flop came A K T, at least we know that if our opponent calls, in the main he has us beat. on the flip side, we might get him to fold better hands such as 88 or JJ.. get our opponents to pay us off with worse hands or fold better ones, put them in a hell of a lot more RIO spots than ourselves..
it all really comes down to knowing your opponent and whether he will perceive your bet as strength or weakness, that is the best skill to learn, once you can figure that out you can manipulate them whatever way you want for max profit, u can get reads eventually in zoom versus the regs at whatever stake, but if u wanna lose money either quickly or slowly drip feed donate because u ignore a leak in your game then ZOOM away, close your eyes pray u will have the better hand mostly and pay them donks off

pps...are u advocating fold flop or fold turn?

if u re-read through thread you"ll spot what i think is best..

[Marty719]

why no maths marty?  

look if you think this is ok to stack off with then heyho you keep on doing it, i think you are wrong that so many 25nl players will call quite so many jack x hands pre and then re-raise a strong cbet in a 3bet pot and jam the turn..
overall RIO comes to mind with AJo oop in 3bet pots [no reads another negative] personally i like polarity for spots like this the usual AA KK AK QQ and mix in some suited connectors and low pairs that can either flop big or not at all.. at least if we 3 bet with 44 from the SB and the flop came A K T, at least we know that if our opponent calls, in the main he has us beat. on the flip side, we might get him to fold better hands such as 88 or JJ.. get our opponents to pay us off with worse hands or fold better ones, put them in a hell of a lot more RIO spots than ourselves..
it all really comes down to knowing your opponent and whether he will perceive your bet as strength or weakness, that is the best skill to learn, once you can figure that out you can manipulate them whatever way you want for max profit, u can get reads eventually in zoom versus the regs at whatever stake, but if u wanna lose money either quickly or slowly drip feed donate because u ignore a leak in your game then ZOOM away, close your eyes pray u will have the better hand mostly and pay them donks off

pps...are u advocating fold flop or fold turn?

if u re-read through thread you"ll spot what i think is best..

Not sure what maths you wud like.  Ive shown my range breakdown, and that I believe we have 52% equity against his range, and that would therefore make it a profitable call.  Havent even added any JT combos into that range as I was feeling generous

I also very much agree with you that it all comes down to knowing your opponent and how he will percieve your bet.  Again though....this is vs an unknown and we dont have that luxury.  Obviously there are a lot of opponents whr we can snap fold flop, and there are others we can fist pump get it in against.  Against an unknown, I think we shrug our shoulders, call, and make a note to aid our decision making process the next time.

Pretty sure we are never going to agree, and I wnt be stubborn enough to give the "Im def right, and ur def wrong post" (...see above).  Would be interesting to hear other views or cross post on another forum for other views.

Also...I reread thread and still not 100% if you want hero to fold flop or turn?  If you could clarify it for the OP, Im sure it would be helpful