Author Topic: Aces facing decisions post flop  (Read 6649 times)

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pokerpops

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Aces facing decisions post flop
« on: September 17, 2012, 09:53:24 AM »
Will take this in two stages. This is stage one.



£100 FO
49 entries
22,000 starting stack
Level 5 150/300/25

Villain 1 utg - 50,000
Villain 2 cutoff - 20,000
Hero SB - 24,000

History - Villain 1 is a local regular who both Villain 2 and I see as a target. He"s hit a lot so far today including a flopped straight when he raised 64 from utg and called a 3 bet from Villain 2...
Villain 2 is likely to be calling light.
I"ve been very active thus far and my image may be more aggressive than it could be. I"ve actually had a lot of premiums. QQx2, KKx2, AA and a lot of AK/AQ so my 3bet stats are pretty high. I haven"t tangled much with Villain 2, other than having 3bet KK from the blinds and made a delayed c bet  on an AKx9 board. He folded, accusing me of having a set of nines...

utg raise to 700
folds to cutoff who calls
I 3 bet to 2425 with Ah  A s (views on raise size?)
Villain 1 thinks for a while, then calls.
Villain 2 calls pretty quickly

Flop 8s Js 8c

I lead for 3300 (views here too - is open shoving an option?)
Villain 1 makes it 7000
Villain 2 calls

Back to me...
Call/Raise/Fold? if we call, what"s the plan on the turn?
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Paulie_D

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 10:39:43 AM »
I would have made bet nearer 75% of the pot on the flop but that"s neither here nor there.

As it stands, I"m never calling once I"ve been raised and there"s a call behind.

There"s enough in the pot to make jamming now the preferred option.

We"re only dead to pocket eights and if one of them has JJ or an 8 then we still have outs.

I would expect to see KK or QQ in this mix for V2
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duke3016

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 10:50:57 AM »
All in faster than a fast thing - but thats just me  8)

Marty719

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 10:53:54 AM »
I fold and don"t tell anyone.  V1 has a very strong range when he pretty much clicks it back over our strong bet with a man behind.  Open shoving flop would be horrible, and can"t see us ever really getting called by worse, esp wen we block the nfd.

Like the sizing pre.  
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AMRN

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 11:00:28 AM »
How often do either of them show up with an 8 here, given the action pre.  I know OP says V1 had previously raise/called UTG with 64, and he may have done it with 8x here.... but I don"t think I"m putting an 8 into V2"s range.

I think I close my eyes and shove here. I think we get called often enough by flush/straight draws, or by KK/QQ/AJ, that the shove is profitable.


George2Loose

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 11:05:36 AM »
3 bet size seems a bit big but obv fine seeing as two people called.

I check these flops a lot esp multi way for pit control. Pretty easy fold now
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George2Loose

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 11:06:42 AM »
Ignore me thought it was J98! Puke spot
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Marty719

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 11:10:57 AM »

Ignore me thought it was J98! Puke spot


Haha - me2!!!!!

On J88 I doubt I fold.  Probs just get it in now with so much in there, but not thrilled about it.
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GiMac

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 11:17:00 AM »

How often do either of them show up with an 8 here, given the action pre.  I know OP says V1 had previously raise/called UTG with 64, and he may have done it with 8x here.... but I don"t think I"m putting an 8 into V2"s range.

I think I close my eyes and shove here. I think we get called often enough by flush/straight draws, or by KK/QQ/AJ, that the shove is profitable.





This.

It"s defo +EV to 4 bet shove here, altho the flat from V2 bothers me and he could be have JJ, but if he does nhwpgg.

AAroddersAA

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2012, 11:42:44 AM »
This post may make no sense the spot is so difficult.

I actually think we can make our Preflop raise a little bit bigger here. The UTG raise should be a sign of strength and the call from Villian 2 could be a strong hand trying to get some more chips from UTG, although this would not actually be a very good play. So we have a pot when it gets to us Preflop which is already 1275. I prabably make it 3K but thats not a huge thing.

Once they call it is hard to give them a range. Villian 2 does not have the odds to set mine but might have decided to do so anyway or he could ahve a hand like 99, TT, JJ, QQ and id hoping for a decent flop for those hands. UTG from what you have said can have a really wide range.

The flop is a good one for you, you have a useful blocker so a flush draw is less likely and the chances of somebody having a 8 are pretty low. At this point I am very happy. The pot is around 8K at I believe? You raised to 2425 and were called twice plus blinds and antes?

I would be leading for 6K here, I think the smaller bet leaves money on the table. It does mean that UTG might call wider. When he raises he can have the following hands?

JJ, 89, 78, QQ, KK, 9sTs, some other random draws

Even if his range really is this tight we only need to have a very small amount of fold equity to make this shove profitable even if we totally remove the draws.

The problem here for me is Villian two. He has seen you 3-bet pre and has seen a c-bet, which looks a little weak actually. He has then seen a raise from a player we do not think is too tough. With you still to act behind he has called the raise. At this point every alarm is going off. I can"t see what he can have but the he meant to have an 8 at least. Does he call here with AJ, QQ or KK? How many eights does he have in his range. If he called with KK or QQ preflop then now would be the time to pull the trigger. AJ is not ringing true here either. I get the impression he is a good player so I am now stuck.

I don"t know if this is a call or a fold because I can"t figure out what their ranges are. The way it has played I can"t get away from the fact they both have eights in their range somehow. They shouldn"t, but they do. Villian two also has JJ in his range. He may also have KK and QQ in his range. It seems to me that for a shove to be profitable here we need them to have a lot of flush draws in their range which does not seem likely on a pired board when we block the NFD.

In real life I am pretty sure I do end up shoving. The best play may be to fold even with the chips already in the pot?
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deanp27

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2012, 12:41:04 PM »
Like the sizings and unlikely to fold now. People tend to click back pocket pairs on flops like this especially if they are clueless about ranges in 3bet pots. I"d need a solid read to fold. Checking flop can also be good for deception and pot control vs some villains but more likely to do this on a j44 flop or if flop was say JJ8 as there should be more Jx hands in their ranges than 8x
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dwh103

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 13:26:16 PM »
If Villain 1 is a whale, then I probably size my 3bet a little bigger, just to get more chips in the pot.

If Villain 2 is competent and targeting Villain 1, he almost never has JJ in his range. I highly doubt a strong player will flat JJ in position against a maniac who"s already shown propensity to raise-call with a very wide range - it"s too good an opportunity and a really rubbish time to slowplay.

Villain 1"s range is too wide for you to fold to. If he has an 8, he has an 8.

It all depends on how good Villain 2 is. He"s called twice for 12% of his stack, and then the flop for 40% of his remaining stack. For the average player this should be a big hand. A big draw is an outside possibility if he assumes he"s already pot committed so is flatting to attempt to get you to call behind for extra value. This would involve him calling a 3bet with 97, T9, Q9, QT or Ax spades. Of course if you think he might get a fair chunk of his stack in with these, the same also applies to 8x.

This is one of those where I"d really want to be at the table. I"d suspect a fold is probably the correct option, but I probably end up getting it in.
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AlanG

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 14:10:06 PM »
A very interesting spot - this is the sort of hand that makes the forum good value.  My tuppenceworth:

From your description, you are clearly miles ahead of Villain 1"s range, and it is all about Villain 2.  He flatted for more than 1/3 of his stack preflop, and has now put in more than half without raising, so it comes down to your judgement of his range.  You mentioned that he was targeting Player 1, which suggests a thinking player, in which case the only hands that really makes sense are JJ to AA, unless he has you down as a bit of a maniac.  Even though JJ looks to me like the most likely holding, the possibility of the others - especially KK - gives you odds to get it in.

Having said that, like others, I probably put my chips in without much hesitation and then say "Knew it!", when he turns over the jacks.

I like the pre-flop size, btw.

Swinebag

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2012, 21:39:24 PM »
sizings seem fine to me.

I probably stack off on this board despite all the action. villain turns up with AJ, QQ, KK too often for my liking
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AAroddersAA

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Re: Aces facing decisions post flop
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2012, 22:43:17 PM »

sizings seem fine to me.

I probably stack off on this board despite all the action. villain turns up with AJ, QQ, KK too often for my liking


Against one I agree but there are two of them interested here. I just don"t think they are both in there with QQ and KK or AJ. I completely understand Villain 2 should never have an 8 or JJ but somehow, it"s looks like he might.
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