Middle Pairs near the bubble.

[Erimus]

Hand from ecop last night I can"t remember exact chip counts but will just put in approximate blinds each player has, this scenario been pretty common  in a few tournaments I have played recently. I understand about going for the win and the big money up top etc but sometimes even a min cash helps with the happiness ev , making the money in a game you have been playing for 5 hours.

15 paid 17 left I am 14th with about 17 bigs, utg who has just lost a flip shoves for 5 bigs obviously he is pushing very wide any ace, king suited connectors etc I am utg +2 with 77, my usual move here is to normally isolate with an all in happy to take the flip or whatever with original raiser but in my last few games people have tended to wake up behind and I end being in bad shape against higher pairs or in the best case scenario up against 4 over cards, I flat the all in from the shortie,it gets to cut off who shoves all in he has me well covered, folds back to me what do you do with any mid pairs here ie 55,66,77,88.

If I fold I have 12 bigs left, checking the lobby there are still  2 shorties who are probably committed in the next hand or 2. No HUD stats available on the all in player.

[deanp27]

Flat calling such a small shove from there is a disaster, bubble or no bubble.

If you are unsure just open fold.

[AMRN]

You may well have invited the squeezy iso shove by flatting. I think that having committed around a third of your stack, folding is horrible.

I think the real decision spot worthy of discussion is what to do with your first action. If you"re playing to win and win only, shoving is fine. If you"re playing an ICM game, then folding is fine. I can"t really see any situation where flatting is ok though.

[Fatcatstu]

Not a fan of flatting in this spot at all Bri. There would be no way that given I have already put 1/3 of my chips in the pot and am then folding, he could have anything at all here in my opinion, so I am now just calling it off with a big sigh.

Is open shoving a better line to take in this spot? Feels like it is to me...

[AAroddersAA]

Agree with the above.

As played we need to win the pot about 28% of the time to be +EV on chips. Against these ranges we have about that.

************************************************************************************

855,350,496  games     1.143 secs   748,338,141  games/sec

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    28.335%     28.14%    00.19%         240719751      1647974.33   { 77 }
Hand 1:    37.742%     36.85%    00.89%         315217804      7608929.33   { 88+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2:    33.922%     32.96%    00.96%         281920960      8235077.33   { 77+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

************************************************************************************

I have given the original shover a pretty tight range here and the reshover the same. Looking at this I think calling will win you chips long term. ICM wise it may well be a fold though.

[CUFCrp]

OP with a 17BB stack you haven"t got enough to be farting around to be honest.

Reshoving is fine if you fancy the flip. Just because people woke up with hands behind you in your last couple of games don"t let that influence your play going forward.

Folding is fine, because it preserves your stack, potentially denies the shover a major chip increase, and with 17BB I would be trying as hard as possible to get everyone else to do all the work. Especially with 55, 66, and 77. 8"s and above are a bit of a harder fold IMO simply because the less overcards in this spot, the better.

I fail to see any benefits of flatting in this spot, it telegraphs weakness to the players behind, that you"d failed to shove.
In conclusion, either option is good, just be decisive either way!

[Erimus]

Hands up, out of all 3 options I did choose the wrong one it was shove or fold, as I said in original post it"s a no brainer and its a shove all day and to let previous games results influence my decision is pretty stupid tbh, sometimes this game gets to your head a little bit.

I went back to my nittier tendencies and folded like a wimp, fairly sure cut off wasn"t doing that with 55 and below so was going to crushed.

Cut off had AA and small stack has 89 off, the poker gods further punished me by putting a 7 on the flop, this is not a result dependant moan just wanted a cyber smack around the head to remind me to play each game on its own merits, incidentally went out pushing J 9 into KK, sb into bb got a min cash and the small profit generated i shall treat the missus to some pub grub somewhere, it"s a cheap night out in the Boro.

Ty for the responses

[fandango]

Hands up, out of all 3 options I did choose the wrong one it was shove or fold, as I said in original post it"s a no brainer and its a shove all day and to let previous games results influence my decision is pretty stupid tbh, sometimes this game gets to your head a little bit.

I went back to my nittier tendencies and folded like a wimp, fairly sure cut off wasn"t doing that with 55 and below so was going to crushed.

Cut off had AA and small stack has 89 off, the poker gods further punished me by putting a 7 on the flop, this is not a result dependant moan just wanted a cyber smack around the head to remind me to play each game on its own merits, incidentally went out pushing J 9 into KK, sb into bb got a min cash and the small profit generated i shall treat the missus to some pub grub somewhere, it"s a cheap night out in the Boro.

Ty for the responses

Hi Brian i remember the hand as i was the player all in had just lost 99 v A3 to another shorty, picked that spot early position hoping for a isolation shove.. when you flatted i pretty much hated it to be fair but was thrilled for the re raise from cut off.. i believe his raise although having AA obv gave me a chance to triple up but after hitting the 8 on flop gave me additional outs... Regarding your 77 i believe with 17BBs i find a better spot with better position, my old addage of needing to cash first, to win the whole tourney sticks.. i only flat there with a monster AA/KK/QQ but thats just me.

[Erimus]

My flat was pretty awful, it was shove or fold and whatever happens behind so be it, probably only going to be called by 10+, AK, AQ maybe, unlucky if some one wakes up behind with a hand then just need to suck out, this was a mistake by me but that"s the way it goes sometimes, every day is a learning day, congrats on your recent success.

This is a mistake I was constantly making a few years ago but the last year or so I have cut it out and it has made a difference in my results, a constantly recurring theme in my blog is gotta win the flips with them stacks if not a flip just take your chances and sometimes the luck is on your side.

[PantsMan]

"just wanted a cyber smack around the head to remind me to play each game on its own merits"

Think others have already done that but have to agree. Flatting there is horrible. Shove or fold. Happy with either to be honest. Although i"m shoving personally as min cashing is never my aim.

At least you know what you did wrong. It"s when you"re making the same mistakes and not realising it you need to worry.

[Swinebag]

Interesting spot. Sat in UTG+2 with that stack, I would open fold 66-. With a shove in front, I definitely fold 66-.


88 gets played to the death, but 77 feels borderline to me.

If I felt I was able to get a lot of reshoves through, I would preserve my chips here and fold. If it wasn"t near the bubble  I"d probably take a punt and ship in.

Calling is a major leak, but I think everyone has already said that.