A PLO8 cash hand that has kept me awake

[AMRN]

I have a PLO8 cash hand from the weekend that I"ve been struggling to decide best course of action on - interested on thoughts on the line taken so far in the hand, and what the next move should be. Also interested in whether the stack sizes should or shouldn"t change the strategy (caution vs aggression).

It"s a .25/.50 cash table, and I"ve have had a good session and am sat with around 4x buyins.

V1 (SB) - $164.51   [Very loose, very passive - VPIP of 59%, PFR 4%, Agg 0.8 )
Me (BB) - $193.27
UTG - $66.75
V2 - $44.85  [Decent PLO8 reg, TAG]
Btn - $49.75

I am dealt    

UTG Limps $0.50
V2 Raises to $2.25
Btn Folds
V1 Calls in SB
Me...  I raise to $9.50.  I"m hoping that V2 will 4bet to push V1 out of the hand, and that I can get stacks in preflop against V2 (effective stack $44.85 - wouldn"t want to get in pre with V1"s big stack though)
Utg Folds
V2 Calls
V1 Calls

Not ideal that they both call, but I have position on the guy with the bigger stack, so not too uncomfortable at this point. V1"s range is super-wide.  I don"t think V2 raise/calls without having A2xx/A3xx/AAxx. As I have AAxx, and assume that V2 may have Axxx, I discount AAxx from both of their ranges.

Flop -  

I flop second nut low draw, nut flush draw, and have the overpair. I"ve also counterfeited the lo draw for all A2xx hands unless they also contain a 3 or a 4.   Not a perfect flop, but gives me plenty of equity for both hi and lo pots, and lots of scoop potential.

V1 Checks
I Check with a plan to Raise
V2 Bets full pot - $29.00 (leaving $6 behind)
V1 Min raises to $58 (leaving $97 behind)
I have $183 behind, and pot is now $116.............

If I call, I will have pot odds to call on the turn, so can never call flop then fold turn (unless board pairs perhaps).

Is the min-raise from V1 a sign of strength and a pot-builder, or a sign of weakness and a vain attempt to isolate the shorter stack?  Is it more likely that he shoves to isolate if he has a set and doesn"t want to lose half the pot to any lo draw that I may have?

A side pot with V1 would be bigger than the main pot.

So - Call, Fold, or Shove??

[deanp27]

I think I would have just bet/called the flop

[MintTrav]

I have a feeling the   is not going to feature on this board.

[Paulie_D]

I would have bet the flop too, it"s about as good as we could hope for with our hand.

Hmm, I"m honestly torn on this hand. Without history on the villains it"s a puzzler

My thoughts are that you are likely up against hands that could beat you both ways with two to come.

I"m not calling....so it"s fold or stick it in their eye.

Overall, I think I jam but with the knowledge I may only get half.

[AMRN]

I have a feeling the   is not going to feature on this board.

The doesn"t feature anywhere in the hand at any point

[Santino67]

Flop really didn"t get much better than it could"ve, other than spiking an ace. Hugely dependant on what range you put villains on though, anyone likely to call your 3 bet pre with 9/9 6/6 or 2/2? Or do you expect them to have middly drawing cards like 7/8/9/x? I"m jamming it in there, hoping I"m up against weaker draws and smaller pairs than AA, hard to see I"m up against a small set unless it"s included in something like that latter hand.

[AMRN]

Flop really didn"t get much better than it could"ve, other than spiking an ace. Hugely dependant on what range you put villains on though, anyone likely to call your 3 bet pre with 9/9 6/6 or 2/2? Or do you expect them to have middly drawing cards like 7/8/9/x? I"m jamming it in there, hoping I"m up against weaker draws and smaller pairs than AA, hard to see I"m up against a small set unless it"s included in something like that latter hand.

Not overly fussed about what V2 has - it"s the side pot that will kill me if I get involved further. V1"s range is mahoosively wide, and yes he"s more than capable of calling 3bets out of position with 66/99/22 in his hand, and is quite likely to have a bad hand that has flopped a wrap.

Having read through the hand again myself, I now think I favour leading out on the flop for just under half of V2"s stack, so that if V2 then shoves and V1 flat calls, the betting is open to me again and I can then jam it back over the top and give V1 the hard decision.

[hi_am_chris]

As played pretty sure I"m shoving, feel like we have too much equity to fold. We could actually still have the best hi hand and have lower flush draws crushed and also block some of the straights as we make a flush.

[pables]

V1 (SB) - $164.51   [Very loose, very passive - VPIP of 59%, PFR 4%, Agg 0.8 )
Me (BB) - $193.27
UTG - $66.75
V2 - $44.85  [Decent PLO8 reg, TAG]
Btn - $49.75

I am dealt    

UTG Limps $0.50
V1 Raises to $2.25
Btn Folds
V1 Calls in SB
Me...  I raise to $9.50.  I"m hoping that V2 will 4bet to push V1 out of the hand, and that I can get stacks in preflop against V2 (effective stack $44.85 - wouldn"t want to get in pre with V1"s big stack though)
Utg Folds
V2 Calls
V1 Calls

Not ideal that they both call, but I have position on the guy with the bigger stack, so not too uncomfortable at this point. V1"s range is super-wide.  I don"t think V2 raise/calls without having A2xx/A3xx/AAxx. As I have AAxx, and assume that V2 may have Axxx, I discount AAxx from both of their ranges.

Flop -  

I flop second nut low draw, nut flush draw, and have the overpair. I"ve also counterfeited the lo draw for all A2xx hands unless they also contain a 3 or a 4.   Not a perfect flop, but gives me plenty of equity for both hi and lo pots, and lots of scoop potential.

V1 Checks
I Check with a plan to Raise
V2 Bets full pot - $29.00 (leaving $6 behind)
V1 Min raises to $58 (leaving $97 behind)
I have $183 behind, and pot is now $116.............

If I call, I will have pot odds to call on the turn, so can never call flop then fold turn (unless board pairs perhaps).

Is the min-raise from V1 a sign of strength and a pot-builder, or a sign of weakness and a vain attempt to isolate the shorter stack?  Is it more likely that he shoves to isolate if he has a set and doesn"t want to lose half the pot to any lo draw that I may have?

A side pot with V1 would be bigger than the main pot.

So - Call, Fold, or Shove??

Is it right that V1 raises then calls or did V2 raise and V1 call? Obv changes poss hand values?

[AMRN]

Is it right that V1 raises then calls or did V2 raise and V1 call? Obv changes poss hand values?

Oops - good spot!  V2 raises, and V1 calls in the SB


Amended OP

[Robbiebox]

Steve , you need to shove them all-in in this position.

You could possibly even get mr big stack to fold, but there is no made lo yet, so you are still looking to scoop and have draws to the lo as well. With that kind of hand, there is no way you are in bad shape even if he has hit a set.

Folding with that much value in your hand is not good, calling that much and then folding is not an option, so get "em in.

[AMRN]

Steve , you need to shove them all-in in this position.

You could possibly even get mr big stack to fold, but there is no made lo yet, so you are still looking to scoop and have draws to the lo as well. With that kind of hand, there is no way you are in bad shape even if he has hit a set.

Folding with that much value in your hand is not good, calling that much and then folding is not an option, so get "em in.

Does the depth of eff stack make a difference here?  If eff stack was 100x, I wouldn"t have bothered with the thread - the shove would be super standard..... does the ~400x eff stack make a difference to way the drawing hand should be played in this spot?

[fandango]

V1 sounds from your analysis being loose isn"t the type of player who is wanting to get out of a pot when they have invested as much as they have.. V2 with their stack shouldn"t worry you if in fact you manage to get your stack in versus V1 as the side pot would still make you a tidy pot if you did manage to scoop. With your hand being as strong as it is with such a huge draw I couldn"t do anything different as to when you have played it as you have then shove over the top of V1 I"m sure he is calling.. Personally I would of slammed the flop after V1 checked and then put the decision on them after V2 had acted..

Waiting to hear what actually happened, by the sound of your heading that it kept you awake I"m guessing you folded or took a beat?

[AMRN]

OK, I shoved and was called - three way showdown. Main pot = ~$135. Side pot = ~$270. Total pot = ~$403

V2 had   . A relatively loose call preflop, but probably ok in position.

V1 had   . An awful call preflop, and out of position.

V2"s is always jamming on that flop when it"s checked to him - super standard.

I have no idea why V1 min-raised V2"s pot bet, and even less of an idea why he then called my shove. He"s called off 330x big blinds with a low end wrap and a weak lo draw......

Turn  
River  

I puked.  Also took exception when he started abusing me on another table for stacking off 400x with AA.  I have him on my buddy list now though.

Horrible bad beat where he only had 3 outs to scoop - most of his hi hand outs would make my lo hand - but not the purpose behind the thread. Having spent three hours grinding up that stack, it was pretty horrible to lose it like that, and that"s why I was asking the question about playing the draw so fast in such a deepstacked situation. I"m not really used to playing quite so deep, and don"t know whether the depth of the stack should make a different to the play.

[fandango]

OK, I shoved and was called - three way showdown. Main pot = ~$135. Side pot = ~$270. Total pot = ~$403

V2 had   . A relatively loose call preflop, but probably ok in position.

V1 had   . An awful call preflop, and out of position.

V2"s is always jamming on that flop when it"s checked to him - super standard.

I have no idea why V1 min-raised V2"s pot bet, and even less of an idea why he then called my shove. He"s called off 330x big blinds with a low end wrap and a weak lo draw......

Turn  
River  

I puked.  Also took exception when he started abusing me on another table for stacking off 400x with AA.  I have him on my buddy list now though.

Horrible bad beat where he only had 3 outs to scoop - most of his hi hand outs would make my lo hand - but not the purpose behind the thread. Having spent three hours grinding up that stack, it was pretty horrible to lose it like that, and that"s why I was asking the question about playing the draw so fast in such a deepstacked situation. I"m not really used to playing quite so deep, and don"t know whether the depth of the stack should make a different to the play.

As you have already said a horrible beat   ... 99% of the time you beg for plays like that just gutting when as you say the grind of building the stack is donked away from you.. I know some people frown on the thought of " rat holing" but if you have made a tidy profit over a course of three hours I see no problem with leaving and the returning or playing another table with smaller buy in.. Different when you play two or three hands and leave don"t much like that.. Many times the same thing has happened to me and have learnt to leave now when the chance of this happens.. Perhaps if like me your a little uncomfy playing a big pot relative to starting bankroll leave whilst your ahead nicely.. Any chance of the players ID I"m sure we would all like to add him to our buddies list..