Author Topic: Mental Game - The Process Model  (Read 12626 times)

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VBlue

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2012, 09:20:44 AM »

I am just not sure that a "warm up" would help me. I dont see how it would change the way I play. My goals are longer term focussed. Maybe I am massively deluding myself but I think I play my A game >80% of the time.

The general point I was trying to make is that sometimes there is no need to over complicate poker. The absolute best way to learn initially is to play as much volume as possible and get yourself into lots of spots that make you think. Supplement that with some strategy, reading/videos, PHA boards and your well on your way.


The last two sentences I agree with completely.  The caveat I add about reading strategy and watching videos is that there needs to be a well-thought out approach to working on the front-end of your game and equally focus on the back end, as if you don"t do both the gap between C game and A game just gets wider as the front-end moves on, and the back-end stays where it is - the Inchworm theory.

When the brain takes on new information it goes through four stages of learning (think learning to drive a car).  Unconscious incompetence - you do not know what you do not know.  Conscious incompetence - you know what you do not know.  Conscious competence - you have learnt something new but need to think about it when doing it,  Unconscious competence - you have learnt something to an an instinctive level.

If you keep only working on new information and not working on correcting your C game mistakes it can potentially be damaging to your game.  It is like an inchworm, the C game stays where it is but the A game is much further along - think bell curve. We want both games to move on together so the gap between them remains small.

Also, a lot of people read a strategy book from cover to cover and think they now have that new knowledge, when it takes a much more methodical approach to learning and applying it to your game for most people.

Volume and PHA boards are certainly a great way to learn.

The purpose of the warm-up is so you are ready to play from the very start of play.  Think professional football.  The team go out on the pitch, they stretch, they perform warm-up routines (strikers take shots against goalkeepers for example).  They go back into the dressing room and they might have a pep-talk from the coach/manager.  Someone will put some music on.  They fire each other up.  When they are on the pitch and the whistle blows - they are ready to play.  Now think about this if they just turned up, put their kit on, ran up the tunnel, lined up, and the whistle blew.  Would they be prepared?  

I recognise that poker in not a physical sport, but is a sport right?  We do agree on that, in one format or another?  So, we have to prepare.  If we do not, then we are preparing during the initial stages of playing.

If we wanted to play more aggressively pre-flop, I might review some hands from a previous session where I flat-called my ATs in position with 40bbs behind 4 limpers, when it could have been a spot to raise.  I might think about the nuances of that hand.  I might look over some notes from my coaching on this subject and remind myself of what conditions I am looking for to 3-bet or 4-bet and write out some session goals.  I might get a drink, put on some music, re-read my short-term goals - looking for some inspiration.  I might turn off my social networking tabs and my phone.

Am I now better prepared than if I just finished watching TV, turned on my laptop, and fired up some cash tables?

VBlue

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2012, 09:23:42 AM »



Preparation - My preparation is very important. I make sure my son has been bathed and has gone to sleep. I then prepare a few snacks and a load of drinks. I then run a bath for my wife to make sure it is ready for 55 mins past the hour so I can come up and scrub her back. I then feel ready to bust some major chops on the online felt

Evaluation - I don"t write anything down but I do think through hands and try to make sure I have made the correct decisions during the session. If it is a late session and a decent score then I just think GTFIT - shiiiiip!!!!!!

Analysis - A weakness in my game. I find this too time consuming. I have a job and poker is my hobby. If it was my job and I actually played enough hands/tourneys for analysis to be effective, then I would spend a lot of time on this.


Analysis - sure.  It is a personal choice how much we put into our game depending on what we want to get out of it.  I understand if poker is purely a hobby and you have better things to do than study the game much outside of playing time.

Evaluation - is always better to evaluate hands away from playing otherwise you are in danger of thinking about a hand you have just played and not the one you are currently playing.  This would come under Analysis.

If time is an issue - even just looking over 1 or 2 hands per session  would probably be a big help.

VBlue

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2012, 12:17:58 PM »
I drafted this last night. What do you think?

Preparation - 15 minutes pre-game warm up and preparation:

1.Review short-term and long-term goals. The session is about playing poker. Remind yourself why you are playing and what your successes will look like
2.Review my A game, B game, and C game. Cut out the mistakes of the C game and instead focus on the elements that make up my A game
3.Make any session goals I want, in line with my current game analysis and coaching
4.Review any coaching notes or hand history feedback that is relevant to the improvements I am working on currently or my session goals
5.Prepare drinks, snacks, and session music
6.Inspire the coming session with a favourite piece of music, short video, or reading some quotes

Evaluation

Score each of the following areas on a scale of 1-5, 1 = excellent, 2 = very good, 3 = good, 4 = poor, 5 = very poor:

1.Achievement of session goals
2.Focus on the session and avoidance of distractions
3.Concentration on the game and all the nuances as opposed to just mashing buttons
4.Tilt-control
5.Range reading skills
6.Overall decision making ability
7.Note-taking

Also take some game-flow notes or thoughts about hands I want to analyse later.

Did I see any progress in the work you I am doing on my game?

Anaylsis

1.Review last sessions hand history and post one or two hands for discussion - 1 - 2 hours
2.Breakthrough Poker Coaching (online coaching course material) - 1 hour - 1.5 hours
3.Mental game work - 1 hour - 2 hours
4. Equity calculations - 0.5 hours to 1 hour

Total work per week - 5 hours

Fatcatstu

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2012, 12:44:44 PM »
Quick question. How much time is dedicated to actually enjoying playing?
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VBlue

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2012, 13:12:07 PM »
Odd question, but all the time I spend playing (or certainly mostly all).

I play two evenings per week, and can play three on occasion.  Usually something like 10-15 hours each week, but nearer 10 most.

I also take equal enjoyment from studying the game and working on all these different elements.  I think a lot of the skills here are very transferrable to other parts of life.

Is there a suggestion from you that if you take it a bit more seriously and put work into improving you cannot enjoy the game?  Or am I reading too much into your question?  I suggest that it is much more enjoyable for many players when they do work on their game and figure out how to get the best out of themselves and study how to win.

Jon MW

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2012, 13:19:18 PM »

Odd question, but all the time I spend playing (or certainly mostly all).

I play two evenings per week, and can play three on occasion.  Usually something like 10-15 hours each week, but nearer 10 most.

I also take equal enjoyment from studying the game and working on all these different elements.  I think a lot of the skills here are very transferrable to other parts of life.

Is there a suggestion from you that if you take it a bit more seriously and put work into improving you cannot enjoy the game?  Or am I reading too much into your question?  I suggest that it is much more enjoyable for many players when they do work on their game and figure out how to get the best out of themselves and study how to win.


I think the suggestion is that work and study doesn"t sound like fun to some people.

I"m more enjoying studying other things than poker at the moment but I fully agree with the principle that studying the game can be enjoyable as well as playing it.
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VBlue

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2012, 13:58:19 PM »
Sure - I can see that.  Some people want to just play, I get that.  I have been the same for much of my poker playing time.

I guess I"m talking to those people who want a little more, or certainly want to give a little more of themselves to the game.

Maybe a recreational player who sees poker as a semi-pro income.

Fatcatstu

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2012, 14:14:31 PM »
Sorry, work has put me in an utterly vile mood, that was of no use to anyone and utterly pointless to a good thread that people are enjoying.

Apologies again
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VBlue

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2012, 14:34:17 PM »
Cheers Stu.

I haven"t come on to be hostile.  I hope I haven"t been.

I get a fair bit of free time in the day and I like to talk about poker and explore ideas and thoughts.  The forum was looking a bit quiet and I hoped to stir up some lively conversation.  I blog too, so it helps me with ideas for that too.

TheSnapper

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2012, 15:06:00 PM »
Some really good mental game tips Here
"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

Fatcatstu

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2012, 15:23:31 PM »
No no no, you haven"t, I was the one being hostile and for no good reason. I need to sit down and give all this a good read as I probably have the potential to be a good online player, but for some reason it fails to capture my imagination and attention like live poker does, my attention span when playing online is horrendous!!!
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AAroddersAA

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2012, 15:49:19 PM »

Quick question. How much time is dedicated to actually enjoying playing?


Actually Stu your question and point is a good one. You do have to enjoy poker in some way otherwise all of this is pointless and you will see better results if you actually enjoy the game as well and all of the work you do on it will be easier. If you have two players of equal skill but one is enjoying the game and the other one isn"t the one who honestly enjoys themselves playing will do better.

When you take an outdraw or a cooler, it will have less effect on your mental state than if you are enjoying playing. If you are actually bored and just playing because you kind of sat down and logged on and started playing because it is what you do then you are likely to get annoyed more easily by the game and start making the less effective plays that I assume would make up part of the B and C games.

So yes asking how much time is devoted to enjoying the game is a good and important question that we should be considering and if it is not enough that should be corrected if possible. This is probably the reason I have been so inconsistent in the last couple of years as I have definitely lost the love for the game and I have become a worse player because of it. Anybody come across this and know what to do about this *lol*?
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Bigfella42

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2012, 21:55:01 PM »
I reckon the best way to improve your poker game is to find players who are better than you and to talk hands through with them regularly. Also, if you play a certain way find people who play differently and get their input into why they do what they do. Personally I really enjoy strategy discussions with some of the internet kids who have helped me see things differently in certain situations and I believe my game is better as a result.

I think different approaches work for different personalities. I"m not one for graphs, lists, or writing down my goals every time. But that doesnt mean I won"t want to improve or think about and discuss what I could have done differently. At the end of the day we"re dealing with a game where we have incomplete information, and we have a mix of playing styles. I think there is a danger of putting too much emphasis on preparation and the like, but it depends what we mean by preparation. To one, writing down aims and reviewing them with a score will work, to another a good chat with a respected mate would work better.

I do believe your mental state does determine an awful lot, so this is a good discussion thread. I know that sometimes I sit down "in the mood to gamble" and other times I"m ready to knuckle down and really focus on making the right decision on every hand. I expect a mental coach would try to kill off that first personality, but personally I quite like it  ;D ;D

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Swinebag

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2012, 00:19:43 AM »

I reckon the best way to improve your poker game is to find players who are better than you and to talk hands through with them regularly. Also, if you play a certain way find people who play differently and get their input into why they do what they do. Personally I really enjoy strategy discussions with some of the internet kids who have helped me see things differently in certain situations and I believe my game is better as a result.

I think different approaches work for different personalities. I"m not one for graphs, lists, or writing down my goals every time. But that doesnt mean I won"t want to improve or think about and discuss what I could have done differently. At the end of the day we"re dealing with a game where we have incomplete information, and we have a mix of playing styles. I think there is a danger of putting too much emphasis on preparation and the like, but it depends what we mean by preparation. To one, writing down aims and reviewing them with a score will work, to another a good chat with a respected mate would work better.

I do believe your mental state does determine an awful lot, so this is a good discussion thread. I know that sometimes I sit down "in the mood to gamble" and other times I"m ready to knuckle down and really focus on making the right decision on every hand. I expect a mental coach would try to kill off that first personality, but personally I quite like it  ;D ;D




Good post Glenn. I think I pretty much agree with this
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VBlue

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Re: Mental Game - The Process Model
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2012, 10:45:12 AM »

Rather than improving your B and C game, why don't we just play A game all the time?  :)


I wanted to come back to you on this Mark as I think some further explanation may help you to understand what Jared means when he talks about Inchworm - here is my intepretation.

The concept of an A game, B game, and C game is built around a bell curve shape.  At the front-end is your A game and at the rear-end  ::) your C game.  Everything in-between is your B game.  (A bell curve looks a little like a D laid on its wide with the two ends tapered.

What is your A game now, will become your B game later, as you learn and improve.  It is likely that you only play your A game a small percentage of the time and your C game, hopefully, too.  The rest is your B game.

Because new information has to go through the four stages of learning I described earlier under the Adult Learning Model, it is only when new information is learned to either Concious Competence or Unconcious Competence that you can include it in your A game, and also your B game. If you are Unconciously Incompetent (your not even aware of a strategy - let"s say set-mining - then it is not in your game at all so will autmatically form part of your C game as you are just playing pocket pairs poorly mostly and only ocassionaly by luck playing them better).  Once someone tells you about set-mining or you figure it out yourself you become Conciously Incompetent until you start to understand the whys and wherefores of how to do it.

Back to A Game - you go and watch a video/read a strategy article or just become aware of 3-betting and 4-betting (you are new to poker and only know about limping, raising, and calling raises pre-flop) but you have not mastered how it works, why, when to pull the trigger and when not to, etc.  It takes time to work this into your game and to become proficient at it.  You might start with 3-betting and 4-betting in position 100% of the time, and the refine your strategy from there, or you may only 3-bet your value range and not understand when to bluff or semi-bluff.  You might stick to some "rules" you learnt from the strategy you read/watched.  This new information when applied correctly pushes your play into - A game, but as it is all new most of the time you are making some good moves and some mistakes - B game, and sometimes you apply it poorly and just get all confused when to and when not to - C game.  Eventually, you get so good at it your A game now includes this new strategy and you mostly get it right.  So, you cannot always play your A game, or even 80% of the time, as new concepts take time to become proficient at.

Your old A game, with no 3-betting or 4-betting in it as you didn"t know about them  (you were Unconciously Incompetent), is now your B game or even C game.  In your new A game you instincitively know how to react so you 3-bet bluff those high VPIP players and pick up lots of uncontested pots, you start flatting medium strength hands against opening ranges you dominate, and you 3-bet for value only when those rocks open (you are now Concsiously Competent and becoming Unconciously Competent as it becomes instinctive).  But now you start to learn about targetting weak players and how to deal with them.  You learn about different player types, how to isolate, and which players you can value bet to death, when players will not give up and you have to give up the bluff you are running, etc. (a new skill that you have become aware of so Conciously Incompetent, but have just started to learn about hoping to become Concisously Competent and then Unconciously Competent)  This new skill is added to your game but you are very new to it so your A game now includes this but you don"t do it well very often so you play only your B game most of the time again.  Occasionally, you make a mess of it and you get distracted by applying new skills and your 3-betting and 4-betting suffers so you play your C game sometimes.

Also, you game is suffering as you make some mistakes set-mining and sometimes flat in position when you could raise and sometimes set-mine when it is not profitable due to effective stack sizes.  If you do not work on this mistake and concentrate instead on learning more new strategies the gap between your A game and C game gets wider - so you work on the poor parts of your current game as well as adding new skills.

Imagine charting all your poker skills - there are some that you do very well, some you do well most of the time but sometimes you get spot on and other times make a mess of, and there are other parts of your game that you are very poor at - A game, B Game, and C game.  Everytime you learn something new you moved your A Game forward (stretching the front end of the bell curve) but your C game stays rooted until you improve those mistakes.  Everything inbetween is your B game.