Author Topic: Heads Up  (Read 4590 times)

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mporter123

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Heads Up
« on: December 16, 2012, 16:59:24 PM »
Heads up in an $11 MTT on Full Tilt. 32 runners. $128 for first, $74 for second.

Just doubled up in back to back hands. Villain has suggested a chop just before/during hand and I declined. Railer (fan of chops) was not amused.

Villain seems fairly spewy LAG and has had chip lead from 12 out. Dodgy bet sizing and OPR indicate he/she is not very experienced. Seems reasonably competent heads up but less than 10 hands in though.

Full Tilt Poker Game #31671379977: $10 + $1 Tournament (245924764), Table 6 - 500/1000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:36:46 WET - 2012/12/16 [09:36:46 ET - 2012/12/16]
Seat 1: Koskela23 (43,689)
Seat 4: Mark_Porter87 (52,311)
Koskela23 antes 125
Mark_Porter87 antes 125
Mark_Porter87 posts the small blind of 500
Koskela23 posts the big blind of 1,000
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mark_Porter87 [Qc 6s]
Mark_Porter87 has 15 seconds left to act
Mark_Porter87 raises to 3,000
Koskela23 calls 2,000
*** FLOP *** [Qs Tc 9c] (Total Pot: 6,250, 2 Players)
Koskela23 checks
Mark_Porter87 has 15 seconds left to act
Mark_Porter87 bets 3,455
Koskela23 calls 3,455
*** TURN *** [Qs Tc 9c] [Ac] (Total Pot: 13,160, 2 Players)
Mark_Porter87: no deal. gl
Koskela23 bets 7,896
sstormyr (Observer): idiot loser british gay&%!!
Mark_Porter87 has 15 seconds left to act
Mark_Porter87 calls 7,896
*** RIVER *** [Qs Tc 9c Ac] [6h] (Total Pot: 28,952, 2 Players)
Koskela23 has 15 seconds left to act
Koskela23 bets 16,000
Mark_Porter87 has 15 seconds left to act
Mark_Porter87 has requested TIME

Fold the turn? Fold now?

fandango

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 17:54:38 PM »
Villains flat post flop suggests to me that an Ace isn"t in his range.. When you have hit 2 pair on turn on turn and he leads out for 16k, I think your committed if you just call.. IMO I would shove and take it down if it"s a bluff..if he has Q9 etc cooler ul.
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KarmaDope

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 17:57:17 PM »
Hmmm...interesting one.

I want to just minraise pre, keeps the pot smaller and controls future streets.

Flop is fine, IMO. Turn is the interesting one. I don"t like to fold because it just seems so weak! However, it does hit every draw in the book, and we have the 2nd NFD to give us some outs. Probably call and fold river unimproved...

But we have improved on the river! We now beat all his Ax one pair hands and missed flush draws. He can easily have a hand like KQo with the Kc that he would play this way I think.

I initially came into this post thinking I"d probably fold. However, I think I"ve talked myself into a call. Hence, call.




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Jon MW

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2012, 19:22:27 PM »
It would depend on the opponent, on the odd occasion I get to heads up I"m usually pretty confident that I can win from there. If I had a read on what he had then I"d go by that - without that I"d fold the turn but call the river. If he"s beating you on the river then I think it"s just bad luck.
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pokerpops

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 13:15:28 PM »
Calling

But then you have Q6 which is of course the Stockton Massive"s premium hand and it"s hard to lose with it.

He"s already taken the chip lead but you say he"s spewy lag so recovering this shouldn"t be too hard if we"re wrong.

Seriously though - bet nore on the flop and shut it down there and then. You"ve flopped top pair on a drawy board, you have a solid chip lead and a pot sized c-bet, with mouse hovered over the call button in case he shoves would be my preference.
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dwh103

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2012, 15:20:20 PM »
Ha, such original chatbox abuse.

This is a difficult hand to analyse. With standards at this level being so variable (especially heads up) a lot does come down to your specific read, so most of the below will be pretty general.

Pre: Much prefer the min raise, if you think you have an edge on your opponent then you should want to give yourself more wiggle room post-flop. You should be using the first 5/6 hands to test how Villain reacts to clicks. I.e. click the first 3 buttons you get with ATC, look to get to showdown if at all possible and that can help dictate your subsequent HU strategy. If they fold to a min raise, then you never need to do any more than that. If they seemingly can"t pass, then (depending on chip stacks) I might test out 2.5x, then 3x opens, or even vary my opens depending on hand strength if Villain is poor. If this still isn"t working, then I significantly widen my limping range and play post.

Given you"ve just doubled up twice, you"ve not had the opportunity, so start now. Therefore I hate 3x with Q6o, it"s behind 2x, fold, limp in my preference list. By 3xing pre you"ve greatly reduced your options down the streets.

Post: If Villain is straightforwardly weak (common oppo type) then a c-bet is fine to get value from a J, T, 9 and XXcc, given that it should be fairly obvious if they"ve hit. If you do bet, half pot is fine. If this guy is aggro spewing, overvaluing weak hands/draws then I definitely prefer a check for pot control/deception (largely the former). I"m betting most turns if checked to and calling near 100% if he donks. I"m usually expecting to get one street of value for this type of hand, maybe two against a poorer opponent.

A bet achieves very little on the flop. Strong hands call/raise, mediocre-strong(er than you) hands call/raise, mediocre-weak hands call minimum, might raise. All draws call/raise and only air folds. You can"t stand a check-raise, and imo you can"t "protect" your hand, regardless of how much you bet. So many hands call, and there are so many different turn cards that are bad for you you"re not getting any information either. The only information you"ll get is if he has air and folds - and you"ll win the pot against this part of his range later on (unless he bluffs 2 streets, wp if he does, move on).

As played, barf spot on the turn. Some villains can easily have A9/AT here, he could be slowplaying something on the flop and is now worried about the club draw. Most obvious thing he"s repping is the flush - it"s down to your read on the Villain. Based on your previous play with Villain I hope you have some kind of feeling whether they"d check/call flop then lead out with a flush. Realistically, you only beat a spewy bluff here (probably pair+SD that turned the FD) - you should probably fold.

Edit: I"d previously talked absolute b******s about the turn (see Steve"s quote for just how bad), now clarified :)

Key is that any missteps early in a hand can have huge consequences later on. I.e. If you 2x, everyone makes the same % bets and you reach showdown lose, it costs you 20.5k instead of 30.3k. If you 2x/check/call/call vs the same % bets then it"s less than 10k.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 17:57:29 PM by dwh103 »
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AMRN

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 15:54:24 PM »

Ha, such original chatbox abuse.

This is a difficult hand to analyse. With standards at this level being so variable (especially heads up) a lot does come down to your specific read, so most of the below will be pretty general.

Pre: Much prefer the min raise, if you think you have an edge on your opponent then you should want to give yourself more wiggle room post-flop. You should be using the first 5/6 hands to test how Villain reacts to clicks. I.e. click the first 3 buttons you get with ATC, look to get to showdown if at all possible and that can help dictate your subsequent HU strategy. If they fold to a min raise, then you never need to do any more than that. If they seemingly can"t pass, then (depending on chip stacks) I might test out 2.5x, then 3x opens, or even vary my opens depending on hand strength if Villain is poor. If this still isn"t working, then I significantly widen my limping range and play post.

Given you"ve just doubled up twice, you"ve not had the opportunity, so start now. Therefore I hate 3x with Q6o, it"s behind 2x, fold, limp in my preference list. By 3xing pre you"ve greatly reduced your options down the streets.

Post: If Villain is straightforwardly weak (common oppo type) then a c-bet is fine to get value from a J, T, 9 and XXcc, given that it should be fairly obvious if they"ve hit. If you do bet, half pot is fine. If this guy is aggro spewing, overvaluing weak hands/draws then I definitely prefer a check for pot control/deception (largely the former). I"m betting most turns if checked to and calling near 100% if he donks. I"m usually expecting to get one street of value for this type of hand, maybe two against a poorer opponent.

A bet achieves very little on the flop. Strong hands call/raise, mediocre-strong(er than you) hands call/raise, mediocre-weak hands call minimum, might raise. All draws call/raise and only air folds. You can"t stand a check-raise, and imo you can"t "protect" your hand, regardless of how much you bet. So many hands call, and there are so many different turn cards that are bad for you you"re not getting any information either. The only information you"ll get is if he has air and folds - and you"ll win the pot against this part of his range later on (unless he bluffs 2 streets, wp if he does, move on).

As played, barf spot on the turn. Some villains can easily have A9/AT here, he could be slowplaying something on the flop and is now worried about the club draw. Most obvious thing he"s repping is the flush - it"s down to your read on the Villain. I"d only be calling because of the Qc, without this it"s a snap fold obv. However when you bink the 6 instead of the club it"s nasty. Based on your previous play with Villain I hope you have some kind of feeling whether they"d check/call flop then lead out with a flush. Realistically, you only beat a spewy bluff here (probably pair+SD that turned the FD) - you should probably fold. But I call because I suck and I"m a little moist at making 2 pair.

Key is that any missteps early in a hand can have huge consequences later on. I.e. If you 2x, everyone makes the same % bets and you reach showdown lose, it costs you 20.5k instead of 30.3k. If you 2x/check/call/call vs the same % bets then it"s less than 10k.


Wot he said!!!  Top post Dave.

mporter123

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 17:17:26 PM »
Great post Dave.

In the past I have tended towards 3x when more than 40bb"s deep heads up (pretty rare).  I had assumed that this player type is not ever folding to the min raise so its essentially a steal. Agree that, in general, a min raise is better though.

I am still just massively unsure about the rest of the hand. Didnt like the turn and head exploded on the river. Need to read your post and try and take it in. Will post results of the hand later in the week.



dwh103

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 17:54:30 PM »

Great post Dave.

In the past I have tended towards 3x when more than 40bb"s deep heads up (pretty rare).  I had assumed that this player type is not ever folding to the min raise so its essentially a steal. Agree that, in general, a min raise is better though.

I am still just massively unsure about the rest of the hand. Didnt like the turn and head exploded on the river. Need to read your post and try and take it in. Will post results of the hand later in the week.


Cheers Mark, and Steve. I aim to please  :P

Past experience should give you a reasonable handle on the Villain, however many players strategies do dramatically change from 3 handed to HU, so still worth resorting to a stock strategy at the very beginning. If Villain seemingly calls wide, that"s great for you. Adjust your raising/limping ranges accordingly and take him to valuetown.

I would expect you to have an edge against the majority of opponents you"ll face, so you should always be tending towards smaller bets, making the stacks deeper and increasing the number of decisions for your opponent. It"ll amplify your opponents larger errors and also reduce your risk and variance.

I should probably clarify the turn. Looks like I"ve suggested calling because of the flush draw, and then potentially calling river based on hitting two pair. That reasoning is rubbish, and my statement is absolute garbage having reread it (I"d just woken up, weak defence I know!). I really should mean that I don"t expect to be winning here, but the only reason to call is if Villain"s range is super wide and you have the assistance of a strong FD - and that"s a bit of a stretch really.

Turn decision is purely on opponents tendencies. If his line bias" his range towards significant strength then the 2nd nut flush draw isn"t enough reason to call. You"d need prior history showing him to be crazy to continue, vast majority of Villain"s aren"t bluffing enough imo, and if they aren"t bluffing, a 6 on the river isn"t going to help you.
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AMRN

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 19:18:33 PM »

In the past I have tended towards 3x when more than 40bb"s deep heads up (pretty rare).  I had assumed that this player type is not ever folding to the min raise so its essentially a steal.


Actually, this is partly the reason why you want to be minraising the button as opposed to making a 3x raise.... if you back yourself post flop, then you want to be playing as many flops against him as you can when you have position.

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Re: Heads Up
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2012, 00:21:21 AM »


I call because I suck and I"m a little moist at making 2 pair.


Wot he said!!!  Top post Dave.


I just go with this part HU against this opponent you"ve described, I feel spiking your 2 pair is hard to put down now after you"ve gone past the turn.
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