APAT National Online Cup - Enter A Team

[HOLDorFOLD]

We generally favour giving the benefit of doubt to players where we can but felt that in this particular case, the chip dumping was so visible, that we couldn"t not take action.

As it transpires, the decision to disqualify two players did not impact the match result - but it will disadvantage one team for the next stage of the event as obviously they"ve lost the services of two of their six players.

Of course we also want to ensure that no players become banned by the network fraud team for this type of play.  Ultimately we"re playing a real money game and APAT would have little say if such deliberate chip dumping was identified and the players subsequently banned from the network and all of our activity.

All in all, the decision wasn"t taken lightly.  Removing players from an event is always a very difficult decision for APAT and I can count on the fingers of one hand the instances of us having to do it previously live or online.

I hope the players can understand our dilemma and support the decision, albeit we accept it will not be popular.

As always, we"re here to learn alongside you guys.

Can totally understand the dilemma you guys were put in last night ... and even if the decision isn"t a popular one we all know and appreciate there really wasn"t a choice in the matter once it was "reported". 

Onwards and upwards.

[Des]

Unfortunately it doesn"t work like that Gordon.  Network rules and licensing laws do apply and there isn"t an operator out there who can work outside of those laws.  An element of soft play has always been deemed ok in these games, but blatant chip dumping can"t be accepted in the same light, if only for the protection of the players involved.  If players have gotten away with that previously then APAT have not done a good enough job in clarifying our concerns in that area.

Nothing personal with the two players who were picked up for this last night.  Just bad timing by the sound of it and we regret that.

[AMRN]

So long as both players were on the same team, I don"t see this as being a problem, and is an acceptable part of team poker. That said, some of us are a little more subtle about it, and it doesn"t usually attract such attention.

My problem with taking this action and the DQ, is that a precedent has now been set, and APAT will be open to people crying foul in the future, and should then really follow through with other DQs for chip dumping.  If that happens, more than half the field will be absent in future team leagues - chip dumping (team survival) is an integral part of the team game.

In my opinion, if the rule is to be followed, then it has to followed vigorously in all circumstances..... we can"t say that it"s ok to breach the rule, so long as we do it subtly - it"s either a rule or it isn"t.


Example A - as posted by Leigh.

Example B - large stack open raises to 3x and then folds when his short stacked team mate shoves for 4.5x. 

Example B is quite clearly chip dumping, and breaches the same rule as that which has been breached in Example A..... but this happens in every single game without any action being taken.


Tough call this one.

[GiMac]

Unfortunately it doesn"t work like that Gordon.  Network rules and licensing laws do apply and there isn"t an operator out there who can work outside of those laws.  An element of soft play has always been deemed ok in these games, but blatant chip dumping can"t be accepted in the same light, if only for the protection of the players involved.  If players have gotten away with that previously then APAT have not done a good enough job in clarifying our concerns in that area.

Nothing personal with the two players who were picked up for this last night.  Just bad timing by the sound of it and we regret that.

I see what you are saying and understand the difficult situation you are in.

However, it should also be noted that this was an extreme case which was easy to detect. How do you propose it be dealt with going forward, because it does happen all the  time in these events? Now as a team we have all our opponents tagged so we know who is on what team, so we can recognise & to be honest we expect that they will be soft playing each other or dumping and one of the skills of the team game is taking advantage of that knowledge and playing accordingly. But at the end of the day if you have 2 team mates sitting side by side and it folds to the short stack in the SB and he shoves the BB is going to fold to his team mate 100% of the time, the SB shortie may also limp, the BB big stack raise and then the SB shove and the BB fold. Now it isn"t as blatant as the example from last night but its still soft play/dumping. It will never get picked up by the network fraud team, but we will all know that it was team mates colluding/soft playing each other.

[GiMac]

So long as both players were on the same team, I don"t see this as being a problem, and is an acceptable part of team poker. That said, some of us are a little more subtle about it, and it doesn"t usually attract such attention.

My problem with taking this action and the DQ, is that a precedent has now been set, and APAT will be open to people crying foul in the future, and should then really follow through with other DQs for chip dumping.  If that happens, more than half the field will be absent in future team leagues - chip dumping (team survival) is an integral part of the team game.

In my opinion, if the rule is to be followed, then it has to followed vigorously in all circumstances..... we can"t say that it"s ok to breach the rule, so long as we do it subtly - it"s either a rule or it isn"t.


Example A - as posted by Leigh.

Example B - large stack open raises to 3x and then folds when his short stacked team mate shoves for 4.5x. 

Example B is quite clearly chip dumping, and breaches the same rule as that which has been breached in Example A..... but this happens in every single game without any action being taken.

Exactly.

[Sugar_Free]

IMO it"s either a team game where the prizes are awarded for getting your team safely across the line, or it isn"t.

[Curlarge]

IMO it"s either a team game where the prizes are awarded for getting your team safely across the line, or it isn"t.

+1

[galo5767]

But at the end of the day if you have 2 team mates sitting side by side and it folds to the short stack in the SB and he shoves the BB is going to fold to his team mate 100% of the time, the SB shortie may also limp, the BB big stack raise and then the SB shove and the BB fold. Now it isn"t as blatant as the example from last night but its still soft play/dumping. It will never get picked up by the network fraud team, but we will all know that it was team mates colluding/soft playing each other.
[/quote]


The reason this would never be picked up is because this sort of play is common in individual MTTs. If the hand last night  happened in one of these games it would be picked up. People play lots of different styles with different theories on what we would do in certain circumstances. What happened last night, the fold could never be justified unless you were multi tblg and mis-clicked

[josharp01]

So long as both players were on the same team, I don"t see this as being a problem, and is an acceptable part of team poker. That said, some of us are a little more subtle about it, and it doesn"t usually attract such attention.

My problem with taking this action and the DQ, is that a precedent has now been set, and APAT will be open to people crying foul in the future, and should then really follow through with other DQs for chip dumping.  If that happens, more than half the field will be absent in future team leagues - chip dumping (team survival) is an integral part of the team game.

In my opinion, if the rule is to be followed, then it has to followed vigorously in all circumstances..... we can"t say that it"s ok to breach the rule, so long as we do it subtly - it"s either a rule or it isn"t.


Example A - as posted by Leigh.

Example B - large stack open raises to 3x and then folds when his short stacked team mate shoves for 4.5x. 

Example B is quite clearly chip dumping, and breaches the same rule as that which has been breached in Example A..... but this happens in every single game without any action being taken.


Tough call this one.

This.

It has to be one or the other now that this has happened and I don"t think many, if any, teams can hold their hands up and say there has never been the slightest hint of a "little" bit of soft play or a little bit of collusion. If the rule is none the it is absolutely none.

(stepping away from thread now ... just really sad to hear two people were DQ"d and if I am totally honest quite shocked that someone in an APAT "TEAM" game, actually went as far as reporting it)

Definitely this too....as much as we all understand the network rules etc....it just doesn"t seem very "APAT spirited", especially when everyone playing is fully aware that it is a team game.

[GiMac]

The reason this would never be picked up is because this sort of play is common in individual MTTs. If the hand last night  happened in one of these games it would be picked up. People play lots of different styles with different theories on what we would do in certain circumstances. What happened last night, the fold could never be justified unless you were multi tblg and mis-clicked

Thats my point exactly, you cannot hope to enforce it or in many cases spot it, yet its no better or worse than the example from last night. Soft play is soft play.

[suzanne]

IMO it"s either a team game where the prizes are awarded for getting your team safely across the line, or it isn"t.

+1

+2

You do whatever it takes to ladder the team up the board.

I too am fine with the play that took place as its a TEAM game and this needs to be recognised by the networks. There are more and more team events popping up so its something that is not going to go away.

The incident Curly mentioned brought the discussion to the fore last season as we were a bit blatant in what we did but imo it was perfect team play. Chip dumping has to be allowed in these games and I have seen it done several times this season...even joked about it in the chat box. Its not wrong... its survival!

[Curlarge]

IMO it"s either a team game where the prizes are awarded for getting your team safely across the line, or it isn"t.

+1

+2

You do whatever it takes to ladder the team up the board.

I too am fine with the play that took place as its a TEAM game and this needs to be recognised by the networks. There are more and more team events popping up so its something that is not going to go away.

The incident Curly mentioned brought the discussion to the fore last season as we were a bit blatant in what we did but imo it was perfect team play. Chip dumping has to be allowed in these games and I have seen it done several times this season...even joked about it in the chat box. Its not wrong... its survival!

Agree 100%.

One thing I don"t understand and hopefully this blows the argument wide open, is that this tournament, if I remember correctly, was password protected.

Therefore by definition, only players allowed to play in the event, only players that signed up for the event and only players that know the rules, (or lack of them in this instance)  played in the event. So therefore APAT can allow whatever they want surely, as it is a private event.

Unless you were registered in a team you were ineligible to play.

Also, having been made aware that "blatant" chip dumping took place in the last online cup, by a number, if not all of teams, why weren"t players banned from that event as well? We were playing on the same platform afterall.

I know I am not alone in thinking that this event has been a huge success, and the phrase "getting your team over line" is a very good one. It is fun to play, requires a fair amount of strategic thinking and has created some very strong teams both playing wise and "bonding" wise.

The fact that it is not simply another NLHE event has been the appeal for many and it would be a huge shame if it faded away.

One suggestion is that if Boss don"t like it then lets play it somewhere else. I"m sure if they knew that 150 players were going to play on Genting for 7 weeks for example they attitude would change PDQ.

[galo5767]

FWIW
I won Sundays game (blatant brag) probably due to the fact that my team didnt make the last 16, hence I played agg. knowing people didnt want knocked out due to team commitments. i.e The Team element worked in my favor - should I be DQ? of course not, I took advantage of the situation. APAT always listens to the punters - although its wrong what happened its also the norm - also its a tainted victory for whoever wins the cup. give them a WARNING

[suzanne]

Unfortunately it doesn"t work like that Gordon.  Network rules and licensing laws do apply and there isn"t an operator out there who can work outside of those laws.  An element of soft play has always been deemed ok in these games, but blatant chip dumping can"t be accepted in the same light, if only for the protection of the players involved.  If players have gotten away with that previously then APAT have not done a good enough job in clarifying our concerns in that area.

Nothing personal with the two players who were picked up for this last night.  Just bad timing by the sound of it and we regret that.

Blatant chip dumping is happening though, we all know it, do it and except it as part of team play. It adds a new dimension to the game.

For example in the hand you posted..it was down to player 5/6 (the one still in play) to shove and stop it happening... he/she didnt have a hand to do so ....perfect play imo.                                                                      

[suzanne]

Did the network pick up on it or was it reported?