APAT National Online Cup - Enter A Team

[GiMac]

Seriously though, if someone from the affected team is going to make a statement like this on the APAT forum, I don"t understand the need to disguise it by creating a new forum account to make the post anonymous. If anything, surely the team statement should just come from the team captain in an open post (like everything else that ever happens on a public forum).  We"re all friends on here.

Ban for multiaccounting?  

[Fatcatstu]

If I"d known it was John Murray"s team that was in question, I wouldn"t have questioned the DQ so vociferously  



Seriously though, if someone from the affected team is going to make a statement like this on the APAT forum, I don"t understand the need to disguise it by creating a new forum account to make the post anonymous. If anything, surely the team statement should just come from the team captain in an open post (like everything else that ever happens on a public forum).  We"re all friends on here.

Is there not something to be said for taking this OFF the main forums and having a discussion with captains?

End of the day, APAT are bound by rules, if they dont follow said rules, they dont have a skin? Is this not correct?

I personally think that some of the people who have "contributed" are doing more harm than good, and making themselves look a bit silly...

[GiMac]

This is ridiculous.

How about we let APAT run APAT's competitions as APAT see fit?

They have never done anything in the past to prove that they cant do things in a fair and even handed manner, quite why people are questioning them now is well and truely beyond me.

[ x] totally missing the point

sigh

Stu, you can sigh all you want but one of the best things about APAT is that we can all have a ding dong debate about things on here which helps APAT to come to a fair and even handed decision with no hard feelings felt anywhere. The day that stops and overprotective sigh boys get their way will be a sad one imho.

[GiMac]

If I"d known it was John Murray"s team that was in question, I wouldn"t have questioned the DQ so vociferously  



Seriously though, if someone from the affected team is going to make a statement like this on the APAT forum, I don"t understand the need to disguise it by creating a new forum account to make the post anonymous. If anything, surely the team statement should just come from the team captain in an open post (like everything else that ever happens on a public forum).  We"re all friends on here.

Is there not something to be said for taking this OFF the main forums and having a discussion with captains?

End of the day, APAT are bound by rules, if they dont follow said rules, they dont have a skin? Is this not correct?

I personally think that some of the people who have "contributed" are doing more harm than good, and making themselves look a bit silly...

So tell yourself to be quiet then.  

[MintTrav]

Seriously though, if someone from the affected team is going to make a statement like this on the APAT forum, I don"t understand the need to disguise it by creating a new forum account to make the post anonymous. If anything, surely the team statement should just come from the team captain in an open post (like everything else that ever happens on a public forum).  We"re all friends on here.

It"s hardly anonymous or disguised, but it"s from the whole team.

There"s no point in introducing new red herrings. There is a match on Sunday and people are asking what the rules will be.

[Sugar_Free]

End of the day, APAT are bound by rules, if they dont follow said rules, they dont have a skin? Is this not correct?

A bit different from your earlier post which basically said break the rules as much as you like, just don"t get caught.

[AAroddersAA]

Ok, as someone looking from the outside at this IMPARTIALLY (there hasnt been any of that so far, most of what has been posted has been bordering on Hysteria) I would say that Leigh has made it fairly clear that APAT are against OBVIOUS foul play ie the chip dumping example shown earlier.

Dont be OBVIOUS and there wont be an issue.

Am i wrong?

Stu, yes mate you are. I will try to explain why. Feel free to disagree with me (like you need telling *lol*). Also it is not just a question of if APAT are for or against it but the BOSS Network. We still do not know how they view the team game and it appears they see it as any other game. APAT are not in a position to be able to say don"t be obvious and it won"t be an issue as they don"t know if this is the case or not and in fact the rules say don"t do it at all.

As I have said to you before I have thought of moving most of my online play and money that is currently sat on Pokerstars (which is not a HUGE amount but a 4 figure sum which is not exactly insignificant) onto APAT poker. Now let"s just say I did that.

Currently I am fully aware of what Pokerstars policies are on these things and if I am on the same cash table with say for example yourself, Curly or Darren Shallis then I will be playing 100% optimally against you and trying to win. This is also true if we end up on the same table in any tournaments. There is no blurring of the lines we all know this and we know where we stand.

Now let"s say I move the cash to APAT. If I am playing you one night in a tournament (or PLO cash game) we will obviously both be trying to win and beat each other as we would at a live event just as hard (actually if we are honest a little harder) than against any other player. Now let"s say in a league event that I happen to be playing I am in the BB with a shortish stack and AKs and a player in the same team as me (Let"s say Darren Shallis, who has a VERY good handle on my game and how I play, who has a big stack raises me from late position. Now in a normal event when it folds to me I am shoving all day long against this player with this hand but in this case due to it being a team event I decide it is OK to fold as the chips stay within the team (this to me seem perfectly reasonable and to be the +EV play). However somebody watching the game may see this as soft play, which, if you go hard line by the letter of the law, it actually is. I know that he knows that my range for doing this to him is very wide and he will call lighter than normal and I get called by loads of hands I crush.

So this happens and somebody reports it to the network and the hand is reviewed and deemed to be soft play and my account is suspended and the funds frozen. This has happened due to something I honestly and sincerely thought was fine.

Here lies the problem we are potentially talking about people accounts that contain real money being frozen. For now my take on this is that Team Play is banned and I will ensure that in future events I am playing my A game against everybody including people in my own team until the end of this current league game. As I said it would be nice if we can get some sort of dispensation for next time but I would very much understand why this is not possible.

One other thing on another subject kind of. I agree and support the two players who were disqualified being allowed to play the rest of the events. I do not understand why the points from last Sunday have been returned to them, the rules were broken, OK they did not mean too but that is besides the point. This sets a strange precedence for me, what happens if the same thing is picked up by another team next week. APAT cannot take action against them as another team has been caught doing it and basically just given a warning (I think). I might be looking at this the wrong way and as I said I will 100% treat the rest of this event as if it was a normal individual event (so in the AK example above I would shove not fold which I would otherwise have done in a team event). Not sure if I am being a bit pedantic here tbh (entirely possible) but this feel like the right thing to do in this case.

[MintTrav]

Is there not something to be said for taking this OFF the main forums and having a discussion with captains?

So the opposite of what you said about leaving it to APAT.

[Fatcatstu]

Is there not something to be said for taking this OFF the main forums and having a discussion with captains?

So the opposite of what you said about leaving it to APAT.

If people are going to be insistant on having the debate, i dont think that it should be out here where people can inflame it further (im not saying you have BTW John)

End of the day, APAT are bound by rules, if they dont follow said rules, they dont have a skin? Is this not correct?

A bit different from your earlier post which basically said break the rules as much as you like, just don"t get caught.

Ok, i will change my wording, APAT must be SEEN to be following the rules, If someone makes a complaint they HAVE to follow up on it. But thanks for your reaaaaaalllllly constructive, no argumentative contribution once again.

Rodders, - TL;DR :p

APAT shouldnt have to say dont be obvious. Where are the issues that they have raised with soft playing? The reason they had to act was that someone did something so ridiculously obviously chip dumping that they had to act on it.

If you fold AK, that is up to you, say you want to avoid a race. Simple. There is a huge difference between this, and the example that was shown, but people are merging the 2 into one.

[AAroddersAA]

Rodders, - YOUR POST IS SO BORING GET TO THE POINT MAN :p

APAT shouldnt have to say dont be obvious. Where are the issues that they have raised with soft playing? The reason they had to act was that someone did something so ridiculously obviously chip dumping that they had to act on it.

If you fold AK, that is up to you, say you want to avoid a race. Simple. There is a huge difference between this, and the example that was shown, but people are merging the 2 into one.

FYP

Well OK I will give you that one. The example I gave and the one Leigh posted are totally different yes. We still need to clear up the rules though but that is probably quite easy. The basic message from APAT from what I can figure out is simple enough. Follow the T&C"s that you all signed up too and don"t assume that they do not apply for these events. I would say that just about covers it? I am more than happy to do this in future team games.

[GiMac]

If you fold AK, that is up to you, say you want to avoid a race. Simple. There is a huge difference between this, and the example that was shown, but people are merging the 2 into one.

And that is why, justifiably imho, people are requesting clarification. You think there is a huge difference, we think there is a huge difference, but do the rules allow for this leeway or is it black and white? Of course if it is the black and white option then it"s team poker Jim but not as we know it.

[ ] Finally gets the point

[AAroddersAA]

If you fold AK, that is up to you, say you want to avoid a race. Simple. There is a huge difference between this, and the example that was shown, but people are merging the 2 into one.

And that is why, justifiably imho, people are requesting clarification. You think there is a huge difference, we think there is a huge difference, but do the rules allow for this leeway or is it black and white? Of course if it is the black and white option then it"s team poker Jim but not as we know it.

[ ] Finally gets the point

A more realistic example may be that our team is in the final of this league thingy we are playing (well the rest of the team are playing I am just along for the ride it seems lol). Anyway imagine this scenario

It is the final table and our opponents have two players left as do we, at the moment the points are pretty even, Gordon has a massive stack and I have 3BB but the other two players from the other team have even smaller stacks and are going to be forced all-in in their blinds. Gordon finds AA (he is REALLY good at this) and shoves as the other players left to act have small stacks. It folds to me in the BB where I have JJ, I have 2BB left in my stack this a call as clear as day but in this spot due to the team element and dynamic it is actually a fold. This is not an unrealistic possibility. I don"t want to be knocked out before them as one of them will probably go out before me and then Gordon just has to outlast the other one assuming one survives. If I get knocked out they may be able to ladder a few places and beat us.

This is where we need the clarity can I fold this hand in this spot. It make perfect sense to do it in a team setting but in a normal tournament it is a snap call. Everybody seems to be saying it is obviously OK for me to fold here but are we sure about that?

[AMRN]

A more realistic example may be that our team is in the final of this league thingy we are playing (well the rest of the team are playing I am just along for the ride it seems lol). Anyway imagine this scenario

It is the final table and our opponents have two players left as do we, at the moment the points are pretty even, Gordon has a massive stack and I have 3BB but the other two players from the other team have even smaller stacks and are going to be forced all-in in their blinds. Gordon finds AA (he is REALLY good at this) and shoves as the other players left to act have small stacks. It folds to me in the BB where I have JJ, I have 2BB left in my stack this a call as clear as day but in this spot due to the team element and dynamic it is actually a fold. This is not an unrealistic possibility. I don"t want to be knocked out before them as one of them will probably go out before me and then Gordon just has to outlast the other one assuming one survives. If I get knocked out they may be able to ladder a few places and beat us.

This is where we need the clarity can I fold this hand in this spot. It make perfect sense to do it in a team setting but in a normal tournament it is a snap call. Everybody seems to be saying it is obviously OK for me to fold here but are we sure about that?

Bad example Steve. You would fold JJ in this spot all day long in a satellite (and probably KK too) - you may even fold it on the bubble of a tourney if the min cash was significant to you.... this one is not specific to team dynamics.  So, my point is that the network software would not throw this up as soft play, hence it would never be an issue.

[Fatcatstu]

If you fold AK, that is up to you, say you want to avoid a race. Simple. There is a huge difference between this, and the example that was shown, but people are merging the 2 into one.

And that is why, justifiably imho, people are requesting clarification. You think there is a huge difference, we think there is a huge difference, but do the rules allow for this leeway or is it black and white? Of course if it is the black and white option then it"s team poker Jim but not as we know it.

[ ] Finally gets the point

If 2 people hadn"t been stupid, would this conversation ever be happening?

APAT have never done anything about "soft play" and I would imagine that if no one does anything stupid like complaining about it, that will stay the same!!!

I really don"t think it is me that is missing the point

[AMRN]

If 2 people hadn"t been stupid, would this conversation ever be happening?

APAT have never done anything about "soft play" and I would imagine that if no one does anything stupid like complaining about it, that will stay the same!!!

^^This