Live spot v Rodders from Coventry

[Erimus]

30 bigs at this stage is no mans land, as Steve has said too many to shove, as said in above posts I decided to 3 bet to win the money in the pot, I am oop in the hand and if I win pre flop I get a few chips without showdown, if I get 4 bet I am sure I am beat or flipping at best, if he flats then it"s set or nothing probs unless hit an open ender then wether I fancy a gamble at that point.

if there had been 1 or 2 limpers I more than likely flat, but with 20/25 bigs I just get it all in pre.

Heard a pro this morning on the wsop commenary talk about a hand he played at an ept event 10k buy in, he just jams 66  with 40 bigs over an utg raise, he ran into AA lol, but he was obviously hoping to win the hoped for flip and win to take him to 80 plus bigs so he has more chance to win the tournament, personally think its a bit spewy but obviously don"t know dynamics of the table.

[George2Loose]

Easiest call pre ever.

[Laxie]

Easiest call pre ever.

You"re calling Rodder"s 16k re-raise?  

I"d have flatted the initial raise and hoped for the set or a draw.  With that stack though, definitely not 3 bet folding, so either flat pre or jam.  No?

[AAroddersAA]

Easiest call pre ever.

You"re calling Rodder"s 16k re-raise?  

I"d have flatted the initial raise and hoped for the set or a draw.  With that stack though, definitely not 3 bet folding, so either flat pre or jam.  No?

Pretty sure George means call the initial raise not the 4bet.

[Laxie]

Easiest call pre ever.

You"re calling Rodder"s 16k re-raise?  

I"d have flatted the initial raise and hoped for the set or a draw.  With that stack though, definitely not 3 bet folding, so either flat pre or jam.  No?

Pretty sure George means call the initial raise not the 4bet.

Phew.  Ok.  Same page again, cheers.  lol

[deanp27]

If we call we don"t necessarily have to flop a set to win.

[TheSnapper]

If we call we don"t necessarily have to flop a set to win.

Would you expect that we would check fold a lot of flops?
Care to estimate how often % we may have to check fold?
Sometimes, rarely? We will check call the flop and find ourselves in a really tough spot.
Do we really give up much opportunity by just folding pre-flop?

I am certain that we can find better resteal bluff spots.

[Zozzy]

Yes we do miss an opportunity if we fold pre imo. We don"t always need to have 7/1 odds anyway in mtts to set mine. (I think cash game play is different but that"s another subject).
Also my opinion on 30bb shoves to a single raise is fine, as witnessed by my opponents on more than one occasion in Coventry. This play is not simply about maths but also creating table image.
Was I on the table when this hand played? I don"t remember it.
On paper the 3bet pre is incorrect, but he fact that rodders is the opponent does play a part in the decision.

[Newportlad]

Agree with George here.  This is NEARLY always a call of the initial bet.  Depends on image/histort etc of player who raises.

[duke3016]

There is a particular reason why I don't normally join in these debates and that reason is patently obvious.  

If I have 30bigs and he has a similar stack to me I am going to firmly put the decision back in the young Welshman's court with an instant all in. Because it is me he will call and I will shake his hand if he hits (or if he has a monster anyway). If he has a lot more chips than me, I will call and fold if I miss.

[Jon MW]

Aren"t there ante"s in play at this level?

[AAroddersAA]

Aren"t there ante"s in play at this level?

Yes, why?  

Craig, it was before you got there mate.

[Jon MW]

Aren"t there ante"s in play at this level?

Yes, why?  
...

People talking about a re-shoving stack in terms of 30 bigs. If there are antes then it should be M and I would suspect it would make it easily the right size stack for a reshove. Not that I would in this spot because I don"t think it would give enough fold equity against an utg raise; but the ante"s definitely change the maths and nobody seemed to be taking them in to account.

[TheSnapper]

Yes we do miss an opportunity if we fold pre imo.

Would love to hear a more detailed description of the merits of this opportunity?

We don"t always need to have 7/1 odds anyway in mtts to set mine. (I think cash game play is different but that"s another subject).

This is totally incorrect.
Set mining is an implied odds equation,  a basic poker fundamental.  The bottom line is that we hit a set only once every  ~9 times, so to breakeven,  we need to win ~8 times the bet when we do hit our set!

Also my opinion on 30bb shoves to a single raise is fine, as witnessed by my opponents on more than one occasion in Coventry. This play is not simply about maths but also creating table image.

Unfortunately this one size fits all strategy ignores the many complex scenarios that factor into
correct poker decisions. All poker decisions are about maths and only maths.
Table image isn"t much use on the rail.

On paper the 3bet pre is incorrect, but he fact that rodders is the opponent does play a part in the decision.

Not sure of your point here really, let"s assume that the decision we face is whether we 3b bluff , let"s also assume that 3b bluffing is not our default  play versus an unknown utg open raise.
how does  "the  fact that rodders is the opponent" impact on us choosing an option other than our default  decision?

[Zozzy]

Wow! Snapper you have completely dissected my answer. Have I upset you? (with my "miss an opportunity" comment?) Or maybe you just generally disagree with my points of view on this hand?
Either way you have asked me to give a more detailed explanation and I will do my best, in my humble opinion.
It could be quite a long response lol  

We don"t know each other but when I have ever read your posts previously on poker strategy I seem to remember that I generally agreed with your views and you know what you"re talking about, so I am surprised that you fundamentally disagree with my thoughts here.