APAT Main event hand

[Charlie44]

Enjoyed the APAT weekend as usual. Thanks to organisers and casino staff and Congrats to winners.

Interested in comments about this hand which I played in the main event this year -  I can"t remember exact stack/bet sizes  but I think they are reasonably accurate as to make no difference to decision making.

Very experienced and very capable apater raises to 1000 ep on tough table. He normally plays solid values but is very capable of making plays a the right opportunity. My image is tight. We both got stacks of 18k - less than average with blinds 400/200 50 ante.

I decide to just call with AQo in the CO. I think the BB calls.

Board QJ44J.  (no flush draws)

Villain bets 1500 (1/2 pot) flop, I call, BB folds. Bets 3k turn (1/2 pot) I call, and villain is all in on river (pot bet).

What do you think of my play to date ? What is villain"s value betting range here ? How often is this a bluff ? Should it be an easy fold ?

If anybody recognises the hand ( especially villain !) please feel free to correct any of my errors on stack bet sizing etc. 

I will await responses before declaring my decision and thinking behind it.

[Fluence]

Very experienced and very capable apater raises to 1000 ep on tough table. He normally plays solid values but is very capable of making plays a the right opportunity. My image is tight. We both got stacks of 18k - less than average with blinds 400/200 50 ante.

I decide to just call with AQo in the CO. I think the BB calls.

Board QJ44J.  (no flush draws)

Villain bets 1500 (1/2 pot) flop, I call, BB folds. Bets 3k turn (1/2 pot) I call, and villain is all in on river (pot bet).

What do you think of my play to date ? What is villain"s value betting range here ? How often is this a bluff ? Should it be an easy fold ?

If anybody recognises the hand ( especially villain !) please feel free to correct any of my errors on stack bet sizing etc. 

I will await responses before declaring my decision and thinking behind it.

I raise pre 95% of the time in that spot. That changes the entire hand and the rest of the hand would have run out differently.

By not raising pre or post flop you have not forced him to define his hand and u have no more idea about what he has than when he initially opened pre flop.

Whatever u do on the river is pure guesswork. Though my experience of APAT's is when the bet really big on the river they generally have it.

[Swinebag]

With a strong hand but one that plays poorly post flop and position on villain, I would be taking advantage of your tight image and re-raising pre here. I"m not sure if calling is particularly bad but I wouldn"t do it. Ready to be convinced though.

If you are convinced that villain is only opening top 10 from EP then you can fold this pre.

As played calling flop and turn are fine. River card is terrible for you as villain is pretty polarised here. He likely checks the turn a lot with marginal showdown holdings such as JK, JA, QK and QA but probably bets KK and AA as well as strong hands pre that are now bluffs (AK, TT) and of course his crushing hands (JJ, JQ)

River is a terrible card for him if he has KK and AA so they are more likely checks on the river

I am left with AK and TT vs JJ and JQ.

Balance in a few KK,AA and Jx that are overplayed with a few more draws that didn"t get there then this seems to be a call for me. If villain is capable of moves then he would be all over that river card with his bluffs. It is difficult to call a pot sized river bet with AQ there and villain would know this.

In short, Yes, enough bluffs to call it off IMO


Folding is far from terrible though to preserve stack etc. and readless I also fold.

[mporter123]

I really want to know the villain before I comment!

Don"t think pre can ever be bad - need more reads though. Not worried about making him define his hand either - if I"m raising then its just purely for value.

Based on info then would be calling river as played but so read dependent - tell me who it was.. please, am intruiged.

[Charlie44]

I really want to know the villain before I comment!

Don"t think pre can ever be bad - need more reads though. Not worried about making him define his hand either - if I"m raising then its just purely for value.

Based on info then would be calling river as played but so read dependent - tell me who it was.. please, am intruiged.

Probably better he reveals himself (so to speak) if he wants !

[Charlie44]

With a strong hand but one that plays poorly post flop and position on villain, I would be taking advantage of your tight image and re-raising pre here. I"m not sure if calling is particularly bad but I wouldn"t do it. Ready to be convinced though.

Thanks for the feedback.

I only called partly because I thought villain had a fairly tight range, but also because there was another dynamic at the table, which I had not mentioned. Two people in particular had been 3 betting and 4 betting light, one which was still to act - I was hoping for a squeeze, putting the villain in a difficult spot and happy to go heads up against squeezers range.

In hindsight I think this plan was probably flawed:

The villain had been at the able long enough to be aware of the dynamic and he might well be happy to 4 bet against squeezer with hands like 99, TT and AJ and I would probably have to fold, whereas if I had 3 bet he may well fold these hands pre, and I would win pot uncontested.

Even if villain folds I would probably need to 4 bet and commit myself with 45 bbs and when I am only called by a range I am not in good shape against. 

[Charlie44]

As played calling flop and turn are fine. River card is terrible for you as villain is pretty polarised here. He likely checks the turn a lot with marginal showdown holdings such as JK, JA, QK and QA but probably bets KK and AA as well as strong hands pre that are now bluffs (AK, TT) and of course his crushing hands (JJ, JQ)

River is a terrible card for him if he has KK and AA so they are more likely checks on the river

I am left with AK and TT vs JJ and JQ.

Balance in a few KK,AA and Jx that are overplayed with a few more draws that didn"t get there then this seems to be a call for me. If villain is capable of moves then he would be all over that river card with his bluffs. It is difficult to call a pot sized river bet with AQ there and villain would know this.

In short, Yes, enough bluffs to call it off IMO

Thanks for the feedback.

This is almost exactly my reasoning at the table and I called..... I"ll reveal the outcome later to avoid any results biased posts.

[deanp27]

 Pre is fine and flatting is probably better than raising. As played its pretty meh but I may call it off hoping to see Ak unless i pick something up on him through the streets. Sort of depends whether you think villain will be betting AJ for value on the turn but you might also see AA/KK for value here, doubt he takes this line with KQ so Aq is likely to be his lowest value hand. His likely bluff hand is Ak and can"t think of many others so I don"t think folding would be terrible, especially as you should  have more Jx hands in your range than he does.

[Newportlad]

Enjoyed the APAT weekend as usual. Thanks to organisers and casino staff and Congrats to winners.

Interested in comments about this hand which I played in the main event this year -  I can"t remember exact stack/bet sizes  but I think they are reasonably accurate as to make no difference to decision making.

Very experienced and very capable apater raises to 1000 ep on tough table. He normally plays solid values but is very capable of making plays a the right opportunity. My image is tight. We both got stacks of 18k - less than average with blinds 400/200 50 ante.

I decide to just call with AQo in the CO. I think the BB calls.

Board QJ44J.  (no flush draws)

Villain bets 1500 (1/2 pot) flop, I call, BB folds. Bets 3k turn (1/2 pot) I call, and villain is all in on river (pot bet).

What do you think of my play to date ? What is villain"s value betting range here ? How often is this a bluff ? Should it be an easy fold ?

If anybody recognises the hand ( especially villain !) please feel free to correct any of my errors on stack bet sizing etc. 

I will await responses before declaring my decision and thinking behind it.

I am the "villain" in this hand.  I cannot remember the amount bet on every street, but Mikes post looks about right.  I wont say anything else at the moment, apart from the fact that Mike and myself have history from playing at the same local casino.

[Charlie44]

Sort of depends whether you think villain will be betting AJ for value on the turn

Thanks for the feedback.

This is a good point. I don"t think villain would be betting AJ for value on the turn simply because he doesn"t think its beating much of my range after calling pre and on the flop.

especially as you should  have more Jx hands in your range than he does.


After calling the turn I don"t think he believes I have many jacks in my range. He probably puts me on a small range consisting mainly of AQ,KQ,QJ.  This means he could bet more hands for value including AA/KK but also means that I am less likely to call any bluffs.

So perhaps the question is whether he believes I will call a pot bet with top pair - If he thinks not it is more likely to be a bluff and if so it is more likely to be a value bet. Or is that twisted logic ?

[Fatcatstu]

Enjoyed the APAT weekend as usual. Thanks to organisers and casino staff and Congrats to winners.

Interested in comments about this hand which I played in the main event this year -  I can"t remember exact stack/bet sizes  but I think they are reasonably accurate as to make no difference to decision making.

Very experienced and very capable apater raises to 1000 ep on tough table. He normally plays solid values but is very capable of making plays a the right opportunity. My image is tight. We both got stacks of 18k - less than average with blinds 400/200 50 ante.

I decide to just call with AQo in the CO. I think the BB calls.

Board QJ44J.  (no flush draws)

Villain bets 1500 (1/2 pot) flop, I call, BB folds. Bets 3k turn (1/2 pot) I call, and villain is all in on river (pot bet).

What do you think of my play to date ? What is villain"s value betting range here ? How often is this a bluff ? Should it be an easy fold ?

If anybody recognises the hand ( especially villain !) please feel free to correct any of my errors on stack bet sizing etc. 

I will await responses before declaring my decision and thinking behind it.

I am the "villain" in this hand.  I cannot remember the amount bet on every street, but Mikes post looks about right.  I wont say anything else at the moment, apart from the fact that Mike and myself have history from playing at the same local casino.

And for this reason, Im ooot

[Drewski]

Basing it on the stacks and amounts given I don"t mind your flat call per flop as I think you have room to do much play if you raise . Although you have 45 bigs your M is only just over 17. As you can see in the hand after three half pot bets from the villain you are all in. This is why I prefer to use M rather than BB to measure my stack. I don"t like your call on the turn though.

On each street i would be asking myself what am i beating and what am i loosing too? On the flop and turn I"m beating 99, TT, AK, AJ, KQ (maybe) and I"m loosing to AA, KK, JJ. I would be raising all in vs his turn bet. There is a nice 9650 in the pot already and a lot of cards he could be C betting, broadway draws etc turn should be a brick and no reason for him to not c bet again.

What were your thoughts behind just calling? IMO you are not really pot controlling as your stack is not big enough to acomplish that (hence your all in to call on river). If the call is to disguise your hand and slow play then we have done that very well but found a horrible unlucky river card and a tough spot. I wouldn"t be slow playing the turn often for this very reason.

Really don"t know what I"d do on the river here. Tank certainly

[noble1]

So perhaps the question is whether he believes I will call a pot bet with top pair - If he thinks not it is more likely to be a bluff and if so it is more likely to be a value bet. Or is that twisted logic ?

no its not twisted logic, if you think he is putting you on a hand, then the real question to ask is,""what does he think I have"" rather than thinking about his bluff and value ranges...
also add in any read/clue/logic like - what does my opponent think i"m doing...

[CW86]

With a strong hand but one that plays poorly post flop and position on villain, I would be taking advantage of your tight image and re-raising pre here. I"m not sure if calling is particularly bad but I wouldn"t do it. Ready to be convinced though.

Thanks for the feedback.

I only called partly because I thought villain had a fairly tight range, but also because there was another dynamic at the table, which I had not mentioned. Two people in particular had been 3 betting and 4 betting light, one which was still to act - I was hoping for a squeeze, putting the villain in a difficult spot and happy to go heads up against squeezers range.

In hindsight I think this plan was probably flawed:

The villain had been at the able long enough to be aware of the dynamic and he might well be happy to 4 bet against squeezer with hands like 99, TT and AJ and I would probably have to fold, whereas if I had 3 bet he may well fold these hands pre, and I would win pot uncontested.

Even if villain folds I would probably need to 4 bet and commit myself with 45 bbs and when I am only called by a range I am not in good shape against. 

I think i may have been at this table and am one of the 3-4 betters lighter,

Based on you flatting with AQ because you are aware of villains opening range, u should assume that me or tom should also be aware and as such your hope for a squeeze is hopeful at best. The hands u suggest like 99 -1010 will almost certainly never be in my 3 betting range, as i dnt want to be 3b folding such value, especially when both villain and you are aware of our propensity to 3bet light and so be more than happy to fire back with a hand like AJ, AQ, KQ etc (as i believe u should)

to be cont...off to work

[Charlie44]

The hands u suggest like 99 -1010 will almost certainly never be in my 3 betting range,

Chris - I appreciate your feedback.

Sorry perhaps I didn"t make myself clear, my original thinking at the table was that if the 3 bet lighter to my left (Tom ?) 3 bet, then it may force Darren to fold in an awkward spot and I would be happy to continue with  Tom heads up. However  I now think Darren is quite capable of 4 betting in that situation with TT,99, AJ  and I would have to decide how to decide to proceed with my AQ probably for my tourney life. If had 3 bet myself I guess  Tom gets out of the way and with my image Darren may well fold his TT,99, AJ holdings.

I think the plan was certainly flawed and I appreciate now that Tom would be unlikely to squeeze when myself and Darren had shown strength. The 3/4/5/6 !  bet dynamic was of course just between yourselves.

Really enjoyed the your confrontation with Tom , by the way, which was certainly not typical of an APAT table. I look forward to your further comments.    

JM.