JM 4/9/13 HAnd 4 Is this always a fold with QQ ?

[Charlie44]

Only 6 hands on villain. Should this be a fold on turn/river ?

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: $14.35
SB: $20.98
BB: $8.98
UTG: $10.84
UTG+1: $6.05
UTG+2: $26.40
MP: $4.44
MP+1: $14.25
Hero (CO): $11.41

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has
UTG calls $0.10, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.20

Flop : ($0.75, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.43, UTG calls $0.43

Turn : ($1.61, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.92, UTG raises to $2.70, Hero calls $1.78

River : ($7.01, 2 players)
UTG bets $4.67, Hero calls $4.67

[mporter123]

Raise more pre. I go for $0.43 just to be sexy. We need to charge the limper, raising to $0.30 means he is getting the right odds to call with all his limpy hands.

Well played on the turn - I like just calling the raise. Out of interest, did you think about re-raising? Were you calling because you thought you were winning or worried you were losing?

[Fatcatstu]

Agree raise more pre!!

What can have here that is limp calling and ahead of us on this board? He can play pocket pairs in this way so I suppose a house or quads are in his range, but I think it has to be 99.

Why has he taken off on the turn? Just feels like A9 or a flush draw to me.

I"m just not good enough to fold this river, just sigh, call abd move on I think!!!

[mporter123]

I don"t think we should be folding the river.

For all the times he has 99, he can have 10"s and Jacks and play them exactly the same. Ditto hands like A9.

He limps UTG - we can use that knowledge to make the river call.

[AAroddersAA]

I would raise to 40c but I don"t mind the 30c raise. I always do 3x and add 1 for each limper in cash, it is old skool but it works.

Not sure what he is limping in with but if we don"t have a read it could be almost anything, has he limped in on any of the last 6 hands? Limp/Calling is usually a pair or small connecting type cards. He pretty much never has AA or KK here so remove those from his range as treat your hand as being best obv.

The flop is great for our hand. He could have a 4 but does not feel like he one too often, the only other hand we are scared of is 99. We get calls from lots of hands we beat I expect mid pairs call us and maybe the odd flush draw? I am super confident I have the best hand and pretty ready to get as much money in as possible.

The turn should be a great card for us and I still feel really good about my hand, we bet again which is cool. Then we get raised... Oh dear.

Limp/call preflop. Check call flop. Check/raise the turn a decent amount. That is about the strongest line you can get at this level and one pair is almost never beating it. I have no idea how we are losing but it is VERY unlikely we are getting exploited unless we have evidence that might be happening. It is one of those spots I am not sure how we are losing but we just are. I would not be surprised to see 99 here tbh. I don"t like 3-betting because he should fold A9 if we do and if he has that we want to give him the chance to bluff on the river where we can call.

I would fold the turn - I just don"t think one pair is good here often enough (although it is pretty close). I don"t hate the call at all, I would hate a raise.

The bet on the river is to be expected after we call the turn so if we do call the turn we should call I suppose, it just seems so strong to me though. As played I can just about find the fold button here, even in game.

fwiw I don"t think Tens and Jacks get played the same in this game at all, the line is too strong, you just get called down usually, and he can also have a 4, we don"t just lose to 99.

It is not always a fold (against me for example you should snap call) but against a random player I think it is.

[Fatcatstu]

I honestly think he can c/r a flush draw here on the turn. I obv bow to Rodders seniority here, but we are beaten by so little...

[AAroddersAA]

I honestly think he can c/r a flush draw here on the turn. I obv bow to Rodders seniority here, but we are beaten by so little...

I understand what you are saying here, it is very true that there are very few hands that beat us. My concern would be that we have a player who has limp/called preflop. So that suggests a passive player, this may be wrong but with only this info to go on we have to use what we have. The game is also full of tight passive players so a passive player is not at all unthinkable. We have a limp call from EP, this is a pair that has decided to set mine a lot of the time although it can also be connectors of both the suited and non-suited kind.

Thing is most of the time when these players miss their set or draw they usually just seem to fold (which is nice for us). Now the Flush draw is possible but it is unlikely that such a player wants to raise the draw. They tend to try and make it cheaply. So when he calls on the flop I would say that the flush draw is bang in his range. I find it much less credible that he has suddenly decided to go aggressive on the turn even though it would be a good play, it would be more likely that he would raise the flop if he was going to raise the draw. I find it much more realistic that he has 99 or a 4. He MIGHT even have seen a paired board and decided to call the flop with 22 not really planning ahead. The size of the raise is also strong, flush draws seem to like either min raising or shoving. Also if he has some kind of 9 I think he is calling us on the turn and likely on te river as well. TT and JJ are likely to do the same given his play to this point, AA or KK are such a tiny part of his ranged based on how he has played the hand I am not considering them.

So although it is hard for us to be beat based on the cards we can see, it actuallyu seems quite likely we are beat based on the whole picture. I could be overthinking this spot and would be very interested to hear counter arguments from anybody really as it can only make the thread better

[TheSnapper]

I"m with Rodders here, check raise the turn is super strong especially from a passive player, after an open limp utg, this is going to be a passive player almost always.

If villain was going to bluff with a FD villain wouldn"t wait till the turn to do that.

I"d expect to see A4,99,22 most of the time.

I reckon if you used the simple philosophy of bet till you get raised then fold, you could beat micro stakes comfortably.

All that said, this is a good illustration why I"m not a fan of Rush/Zoom, I just think we have to play readless way too often and imho, that just gives our potential edge away. So unless you are rake-whoring the volume, I just dont get it.

[AAroddersAA]

This isn"t a zoom table though is it HH says fast not Zoom they are different. Also just a suggestion don"t we gain a big advantage against the regs by getting reads and are we not able to exploit the fact they are often readless against us. Obviously a standard table is a better game Zoom is for practicing the basics. There is an part of the game missing though.

[Santino67]

Suspect I"m calling here and expecting A9 rather than A4, not sure if I"m worried about anything else the way the hand plays out. Feel I"m ahead most of the time in this spot.

[deanp27]

unless he is messing about I doubt we are winning when a guy limps UTG and takes off like this.

[AAroddersAA]

Suspect I"m calling here and expecting A9 rather than A4, not sure if I"m worried about anything else the way the hand plays out. Feel I"m ahead most of the time in this spot.

Grant, sorry mate, could I ask for your thinking on this, as to me the way the hand plays out is the exact reason why A9 is an unlikely hand. It is (imo) certainly less likely than A4. There are more combos of A9 but a high percentage of the combos of A4 may get played this way. A very low percentage of the A9 combos get played this way so to me of those two hands A4 is the more likely. 99 is also possible, 22 (that made a bad call on the flop) is less likely but also at least as possible as A9, probably more so given the action.

I might be wrong here though (I often am) so was wondering what the rational behind your thinking is

[Charlie44]

Well played on the turn - I like just calling the raise. Out of interest, did you think about re-raising? Were you calling because you thought you were winning or worried you were losing?

I was only really afraid of 99 too small a range to consider folding. I was committed to the hand but I didn"t want chase away his bluffs.

[Charlie44]

This isn"t a zoom table though is it HH says fast not Zoom they are different.

Just to calrify Steve it is zoom on stars. I think fast is generic term used by PT.

[Charlie44]

The hand he turns over is 44 for flopped quads.

I don"t know that I can learn a lot from this. Personally I dont like folding one pair hands simply because somebody plays back at me. I prefer to try and do hand analysis and continue in the hand if there is a limited range of hands that makes sense. This may not be the best way to maximising your short term profit but probably best for improving your game.

I think there are a fair amount of big bluffs at this level it"s just getting the timing right is the problem !!