Author Topic: Should I be folding here?  (Read 4311 times)

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Drewski

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Should I be folding here?
« on: September 07, 2013, 23:42:02 PM »
Evening

Wanted to get peoples opinions on this hand.

PokerStars Zoom Hand #103701121136:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2013/09/05 16:33:21 WET [2013/09/05 11:33:21 ET]
Table "McNaught" 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: SUCAEDI ($1.58 in chips)
Seat 2: Seerup93 ($5.73 in chips)
Seat 3: P-lifting ($5.31 in chips)
Seat 4: ChristoPloBe ($2.24 in chips)
Seat 5: logrel ($3.13 in chips)
Seat 6: andyhuk ($2.10 in chips)
Seat 7: Dreinnn ($0.62 in chips)
Seat 8: Orlando I ($1.75 in chips)
Seat 9: Vitalina22 ($1.53 in chips)
Seerup93: posts small blind $0.01
P-lifting: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andyhuk [As Ah]
ChristoPloBe: raises $0.06 to $0.08
logrel: folds
andyhuk: raises $0.08 to $0.16
Dreinnn: folds
Orlando I: folds
Vitalina22: folds
SUCAEDI: folds
Seerup93: calls $0.15
P-lifting: folds
ChristoPloBe: calls $0.08
*** FLOP *** [6s Jc 4s]
Seerup93: checks
ChristoPloBe: bets $0.08
andyhuk: calls $0.08
Seerup93: raises $0.24 to $0.32
ChristoPloBe: raises $1.76 to $2.08 and is all-in


Should I ever be folding in this spot?

I don"t have any info on the two players and I have only just started my session. Also I do not play online very often, let alone zoom, does the fact it is Zoom have any bearing on my decision here?

Also my call on the turn was to entice a squeeze from Christoplobe but I was not expecting the all in.

Drewski

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Re: Should I be folding here?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 23:46:09 PM »
Apologies that should read a  squeeze from Seerup but wasn"t expecting the all in from ChristoPloBe

dwh103

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Re: Should I be folding here?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 00:35:37 AM »
A few points:

- Raise loads more pre. This is 1c/2c Zoom and the very worse poker players shall be found here. Wait for hands and then smash the hammer down rather hard. If opener is raise/calling 16c he"ll probably do the same for 24c - and that"s the very minimum I"m making it.

- You"re readless and have no reason to expect a squeeze. Your flat won"t impact the range of 1c/2c players anyway - it"s a "Have hand, will call" mentality. They"re not suddenly going to go giddy over an extra 8c and suddenly go crazy. If they"re going to continue, they"ll continue. You"ll make far more aiming for the donk bettor and charging a Jack or flush draw the maximum.

- The aim in this spot is to get all the money in the middle, preferably before the turn action is complete. No foldy! Definitely raise Christo on the flop - if you don"t you have a smaller chance of getting his whole stack if he has a flush draw.
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Drewski

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Re: Should I be folding here?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2013, 02:06:11 AM »

- Raise loads more pre. This is 1c/2c Zoom and the very worse poker players shall be found here. Wait for hands and then smash the hammer down rather hard. If opener is raise/calling 16c he"ll probably do the same for 24c - and that"s the very minimum I"m making it.


Thanks. My first assumption of Zoom would be that the players are tight because they don"t have long to wait to get a premium hand. Based on this I was going to play loose. However based on your advise I guess I have that wrong.

I"ll see if I can find some good zoom strategy posts.

dwh103

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Re: Should I be folding here?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2013, 10:36:43 AM »


- Raise loads more pre. This is 1c/2c Zoom and the very worse poker players shall be found here. Wait for hands and then smash the hammer down rather hard. If opener is raise/calling 16c he"ll probably do the same for 24c - and that"s the very minimum I"m making it.


Thanks. My first assumption of Zoom would be that the players are tight because they don"t have long to wait to get a premium hand. Based on this I was going to play loose. However based on your advise I guess I have that wrong.

I"ll see if I can find some good zoom strategy posts.


The weakness of most players will be overvaluing mediocre hands, i.e. peeling that 3bet with AJ, getting giddy over top pair. The simple way to exploit that is to have a better hand and bet big.

Doesn"t mean you can"t play implied odds type hands like suited connectors and small pairs though, as long as you"re disciplined about what you get up to. You"d preferably want players you"re limping/raising into or calling against to have full stacks, don"t go crazy with one pair, get in cheap etc.

For sure some players may go super nitty, if you have a HUD that"ll help over the longer term, but try to take notes if you get to showdown. Most Villain strategies will be straightforward and perception of what you"re up to will be low - you can vary your bet sizing too (big for value, smaller for semi-bluff, bluff c-bet) as it"s very difficult to get solid reads unless you reach showdown with the same person a few times. Your notes can then warn you off readable bet sizing if Villain is somewhat competent.
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noble1

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Re: Should I be folding here?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2013, 14:35:50 PM »
PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

saw flop | saw showdown

Hero (Button) ($2)
SB ($4.48)
BB ($2.68)
UTG ($1.06)
MP ($2.39)
CO ($1.82)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 9
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.18) A, J, 5 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.18) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.38, Hero calls $0.38, 1 fold

River: ($0.94) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $2.24 (All-In), Hero calls $1.56 (All-In)

Total pot: $4.06 | Rake: $0.14

Results below: [spoiler]
Hero had 9, 9 (three of a kind, nines).
BB had 2, K (high card, Ace).
Outcome: Hero won $3.92[/spoiler]



- Raise loads more pre. This is 1c/2c Zoom and the very worse poker players shall be found here. Wait for hands and then smash the hammer down rather hard. If opener is raise/calling 16c he"ll probably do the same for 24c - and that"s the very minimum I"m making it.


Thanks. My first assumption of Zoom would be that the players are tight because they don"t have long to wait to get a premium hand. Based on this I was going to play loose. However based on your advise I guess I have that wrong.

I"ll see if I can find some good zoom strategy posts.


Rather than read strategy posts i"d suggest that you learn the basics, ranges and get good on note taking [what notes to take]

for instance in T.O.P page 270 - taking advantage of mistakes, you will spot every mistake at the micro levels, then you"ll know how to note it and when/how to take advantage.

the above hand i just played just to see what the play was like at 6max micro zoom, what notes would you take? [note the hand converter, gives the size of the pot on each street, very handy when posting on forums]

stuff to get you thinking -

Quote
Using Range Calculations to Make Better Decisions
By Brian "sbrugby" Townsend

Poker in all forms is a simple math game. You have a hand and your opponents have a range of hands. You then make a decision based on their range versus your holding as to whether to call, fold, or raise. You determine this by looking at the equity, or how often you win the hand, against the size of the pot to determine your best action. In no-limit hold"em, when facing a pot-size bet on the turn, generally if you have greater than 50 percent equity in the pot, you should raise. If your equity is between 33 percent and 49 percent, and no fold equity exists, you should call. If your equity is less than 33 percent and no implied odds exist, you should fold. This is a simplistic model, but a good place to start when learning beginning range calculations.

The best players in the world have an intuition about hand ranges that comes from playing hundreds of thousands of hands. They intuitively know if they should raise, call, or fold. Although it comes naturally to some, there are exercises you can do to improve your analysis of your opponents" possible holdings. In order to be a winning player, you need to be able to determine not only your opponents" likely range of hands, but what your equity, or chance to win, is against their range. For the sake of equity calculations in this column, I have used the PokerStove software, which can be found at PokerStove.com.

Let"s look at the following example to show us how an opponent"s range of hands drastically affects the proper decision. You are on the button with the Ah Jh and raise three times the big blind (BB) and are called by the player in the big blind. The flop comes 10h 7h 3s. It is checked, and you bet 6.5 times the size of the big blind (the size of the pot) and are raised all in for another 45 big blinds. The decision to call or fold is rather simple if you can put your opponent on a range of hands. To begin, let"s say we know that the villain is an extremely tight player and will do this only with a set.

Using PokerStove to calculate the equity, against this player we have .265 equity in the pot, or we will win the pot 26.5 percent of the time. So, our expected value, or how much we expect to win on average, of calling is: EV = [(1 - equity in the pot)x(bet to call)] + [(equity in pot)x(pot size)]. So, in this case, our EV = [(.735)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.265)x(58 BB)] = -13 BB. So, with a tight opponent, we should fold our nut-flush draw because our expected value of calling is negative. This means that we don"t have the pots odds to call his raise.

Now, instead of being up against a very tight opponent, we are up against a reasonably tight player who will do this with a much wider range, including top pair. Against this range (sets, top pair, and overpairs), we have much better equity, 46 percent. Now our expected value is: EV = [(.54)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.46)x(58 BB)] = 6 BB. In this case, against the reasonably tight player, we gain six big blinds by calling, though a raise won"t be profitable (assuming we had more money), since our equity is less than 50 percent.

In the last case, let"s look at a hyperaggressive maniac. Again, using PokerStove and giving him a range of any pair, any draw, overpairs, sets, and bluffs, our equity really improves. In this case, we have 73 percent equity against his range of hands. Now, our EV = [(.27)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.73)x(58 BB)] = 32 BB. So, a call is profitable. An interesting thing has happened in this last case. We have greater than 50 percent equity against the maniac"s range, so instead of calling, we should reraise if we both have more chips left.

I used these three cases to show how equity and range calculations can be used when learning a new game to help with the thought process. This approach can be used when learning any form of poker, whether it is no-limit hold"em, pot-limit hold"em, or stud eight-or-better. Learning to accurately put players on hand ranges and apply them to equity calculations is one of the building blocks to becoming a successful high-stakes poker player. Good luck, and drop us a line at CardPlayerQuestions@CardRunners.com if you have any questions.



AE Jones blog quote - NOV 7 2010
You need a read, you need solid logic and it all needs to fit into a good gameplan. I hate making mistakes. If I focus on going with my read at the moment, I feel okay about my decisions. When I"m unable to make the best decision in the moment (and I figure it out later, or I realize that I wasn"t thinking about the right things and my judgment was clouded), it really eats at me.
The most important thing to note about figuring out the mistakes you"re making is that I don"t mean "stacking off too light" or "spewing," I mean that you make the best play you can possibly make with the information at hand. So, if you don"t bluff the river at some point in time when you"re confident your opponent is going to call turn/fold river-- that mistake is just as meaningful as the times when you tell yourself "he"s not gonna fold!" and then you bluff it in there anyways.


http://www.pokerstars.tv/poker-video-18705-live-training-crush-on-zoom.html?channel_id=396

flixx"s first hand in the review T9cc - do you agree with his reasoning? how would you play it differently based on various reads if you had them? what ranges would you assign? can you work out the maths for each scenario?


as per your hand - as pointed out, why min 3bet pre a 4x utg raiser when you have no reads and he has none on you, plus what range do you put the sb 3bet flatter on?
with your blocker to the nut FD, utg might be going bonkers with QQ KK, KK though must some % of the time, would get it in pre, maybe he led small to induce a raise from your maybe obvious over pair just perhaps maybe with a flopped set? the sb might call with all pairs 22 - JJ for example and plays a flopped set fast by check raising or he saw a weak donk bet and just a call and made a move... get pokerstove up and running and have a play with the ranges, but full ring micro no reads i"d fold here in the main.
who knows :) no shame in folding here imho in the heat of the moment, make some notes afterwards..

Charlie44

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Re: Should I be folding here?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 15:59:14 PM »



for instance in T.O.P page 270 - taking advantage of mistakes, you will spot every mistake at the micro levels, then you"ll know how to note it and when/how to take advantage.




Noble 1 - I just watched your suggested viewing on stars zoom video - I found very useful for understanding basics. Definitely going to view more in series.
Probably being stupid but what is T.O.P. above please on note taking sounds interesting.

noble1

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Re: Should I be folding here?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2013, 12:51:40 PM »
theory of poker

TheSnapper

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Re: Should I be folding here?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2013, 13:15:09 PM »


Noble 1 - I just watched your suggested viewing on stars zoom video - I found very useful for understanding basics. Definitely going to view more in series.
Probably being stupid but what is T.O.P. above please on note taking sounds interesting.


Check your email Mike, sent you a pressie, enjoy ;)
"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."