Line Check - 180 man turbo

[AAroddersAA]

Raise/call good here or just shove pre?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.5 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

CO (t1,175)
Button (t1,881)
SB (t1,485)
BB (t1,420)
UTG (t1,559)
UTG+1 (t3,105)
Hero (MP1) (t2,970)
MP2 (t1,375)

Hero"s M: 19.80

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, A
2 folds, Hero raises to t250, 4 folds, BB raises to t1,420 (All-In), Hero calls t1,170

Flop: (t2,890) 6, 9, K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2,890) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2,890) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t2,890

Results below: [spoiler]
BB had A, A (one pair, Aces).
Hero had Q, A (high card, Ace).
Outcome: BB won t2,890[/spoiler]

[Sillbags]

Seems fine. 18 bigs is too much to shove pre pre antes. Hate getting peeled though and having to cbet fold some boards, so a shove can"t be bad.

[fatpants]

to much to shove, raise call is fine imo just ul he wakes up with a monster!  They shove alot lighter than that but prob dont call alot lighter if you shove first!

[Charlie44]

For me too much to shove but ideal situation to induce shove -

Early tourney - no ICM considerations
Will still have decent stack if you lose.
Perfect stack and position for villain to shove.

Snap call for me. Would actually call much lighter here because of ideal situation - most aces, all pairs and maybe some high broadway combos.  

[KarmaDope]

Played well. Like the raise/call. Never open-shoving preflop.

[AAroddersAA]

Actually looking again at the above hand it does not make a good example of the spot I am trying to look at here, this one is probably better. Is raise/call better than shove?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.5 Tournament, 1,500/3,000 Blinds 300 Ante (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

UTG+1 (t44,151)
Hero (MP1) (t42,258)
MP2 (t43,258)
CO (t18,500)
Button (t9,777)
SB (t45,788)
BB (t42,186)
UTG (t24,082)

Hero"s M: 6.12

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, Q
2 folds, Hero raises to t41,958 (All-In), 5 folds

Total pot: t9,900

[Fatcatstu]

Actually looking again at the above hand it does not make a good example of the spot I am trying to look at here, this one is probably better. Is raise/call better than shove?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.5 Tournament, 1,500/3,000 Blinds 300 Ante (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

UTG+1 (t44,151)
Hero (MP1) (t42,258)
MP2 (t43,258)
CO (t18,500)
Button (t9,777)
SB (t45,788)
BB (t42,186)
UTG (t24,082)

Hero"s M: 6.12

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, Q
2 folds, Hero raises to t41,958 (All-In), 5 folds

Total pot: t9,900

Open shoving this is fine IMO.

We are probably flipping most of the time, but with 13 bb, never min raise folding anyway so might as well get it in first and hope to force some marginal hands out and get winning dem flips!!!

This could be why I have been busting out in 60th a lot recently!!

[AAroddersAA]

Actually looking again at the above hand it does not make a good example of the spot I am trying to look at here, this one is probably better. Is raise/call better than shove?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.5 Tournament, 1,500/3,000 Blinds 300 Ante (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

UTG+1 (t44,151)
Hero (MP1) (t42,258)
MP2 (t43,258)
CO (t18,500)
Button (t9,777)
SB (t45,788)
BB (t42,186)
UTG (t24,082)

Hero"s M: 6.12

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, Q
2 folds, Hero raises to t41,958 (All-In), 5 folds

Total pot: t9,900

Open shoving this is fine IMO.

We are probably flipping most of the time, but with 13 bb, never min raise folding anyway so might as well get it in first and hope to force some marginal hands out and get winning dem flips!!!

This could be why I have been busting out in 60th a lot recently!!

We are never min raising/folding, should we be min raise/calling though?

[Sillbags]

I think I prefer min raise/calling rather than shoving, but there is a lot of other factors I would be considering. Would you be min raise/folding any part of you range here? Do your opponents know that? How would you play   in this spot? or   ? It"s very important to be balanced, but if you are only min raise/calling with the top of your value range (say AQ+ TT+) then you will not be balanced. Maybe it would be a more balanced play to open shove 13bb with your entire value range. Obv if you"re opponents are clueless and not paying attention, then none of this matters

[dwh103]

Opponent dependent, it"s more down to whether there"s any chance they analyse your range incorrectly and believe the illusion of fold equity.

If Villains will reshove a fair bit wider than they call the shove, then raise/call (ldo). As Neil says, it"s important you"re balanced with your range - not that it matters at this level though for the most part.

It"s a good idea to play around with some figures. Check out http://www.pokerxfactor.com/sheets/openshove.html

The scenarios I"ve plugged in suggest that if the reshoving range is in any way wider than the shove calling range then raise/call shows a better return. You could, of course, get peeled, but with a superior hand vs a calling range you"ll show a profit in the long run in that scenario.

Open jamming loses some EV, but saves you the stress and is lower variance. And against some tight ranges, open shove is around the same as raise/fold.

[deanp27]

Generally i"d just jam over min/calling as people peel a lot and I rather take the free chips than encourage someone with 44 to jam over my open.

[KarmaDope]

What Dean said.

People will peel mins too often for this to be profitable. Not something I do, but a thought, if we have AA/KK/AK in this spot is anyone tempted to limp to induce as the top 5 stacks are all roughly the same and a lot of regs will jam light over limpers?

[Fatcatstu]

What Dean said.

People will peel mins too often for this to be profitable. Not something I do, but a thought, if we have AA/KK/AK in this spot is anyone tempted to limp to induce as the top 5 stacks are all roughly the same and a lot of regs will jam light over limpers?

The regs I have seen at this level are likely to just limp in behind the 2 callers.

Shoving takes the pot now unless someone wakes up behind with a monster

[AAroddersAA]

What Dean said.

People will peel mins too often for this to be profitable. Not something I do, but a thought, if we have AA/KK/AK in this spot is anyone tempted to limp to induce as the top 5 stacks are all roughly the same and a lot of regs will jam light over limpers?

I would rather min raise to induce, I am not convinced it works but if it does AQ is a perfectly good hand to do it with. If you shove then AA, KK, QQ and AK all shove anyway and we call anyway so the result is the same as shoving but you give the hands like TJs and KQ the chance to reshove on you where they will just fold to a shove. Yes you will sometimes end up racing with 55 and the likes which MIGHT have folded to a shove but to be honest they call it off quite often anyway. We will sometimes get flat called of course but we will have the best hand almost all the time when this happens and will be profitable long term.

I don"t think we get too many regs shoving light to be honest it just does not happen very often but with a hand like AQ and possibly AJ we don"t lose anything by trying this.

Shoving is certainly +EV but raise calling may well be more +EV I am thinking. The idea is not to win the pot now but maximize our expectation. Sometimes winning the pot now does not do that.

[Sillbags]

What Dean said.

People will peel mins too often for this to be profitable. Not something I do, but a thought, if we have AA/KK/AK in this spot is anyone tempted to limp to induce as the top 5 stacks are all roughly the same and a lot of regs will jam light over limpers?

I would rather min raise to induce, I am not convinced it works but if it does AQ is a perfectly good hand to do it with. If you shove then AA, KK, QQ and AK all shove anyway and we call anyway so the result is the same as shoving but you give the hands like TJs and KQ the chance to reshove on you where they will just fold to a shove. Yes you will sometimes end up racing with 55 and the likes which MIGHT have folded to a shove but to be honest they call it off quite often anyway. We will sometimes get flat called of course but we will have the best hand almost all the time when this happens and will be profitable long term.

I don"t think we get too many regs shoving light to be honest it just does not happen very often but with a hand like AQ and possibly AJ we don"t lose anything by trying this.

Shoving is certainly +EV but raise calling may well be more +EV I am thinking. The idea is not to win the pot now but maximize our expectation. Sometimes winning the pot now does not do that.

This is my line of thinking, but interested on how you would play a hand like AT in this spot?