Author Topic: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.  (Read 14106 times)

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AAroddersAA

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Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« on: September 16, 2013, 12:00:02 PM »
Hi Guy"s

I thought it might be worth doing this as it might be good for a strategy discussion, rather than just discussing one hand. I have recorded about 50 hands of 6-max zoom on Pokerstars. I have given my thoughts as I go along and would like to hear feedback on how I played during the session. What is good, what is bad, what mistakes were made and how would you play it differently.

Hope it is worthwhile the video is about 15 minutes long.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG2HlJwlets&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
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Fatcatstu

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 12:46:43 PM »
Just had a very brief look, will look when I get home tonight mate.

First thought, was I right in thinking that your HUD didn"t change at all?
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Sillbags

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 13:15:20 PM »

Just had a very brief look, will look when I get home tonight mate.

First thought, was I right in thinking that your HUD didn"t change at all?

Yeah, HUD is frozen mate. PT3 is pretty useless with zoom. Upgrade to PT4, it"s the nuts. It does auto note taking as well

mporter123

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 13:55:18 PM »
Will have a gander at this when I get home from work.

Lols - I randomly clicked into the video half way through to see what it looked like and saw you 3 betting with the old J6 off!

Charlie44

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 14:36:54 PM »
Very impressed Steve. Very professional. Lot better than some of the ones I"ve seen on stars. Interesting hand close to the end with I think K5o, where you barrelled the turn. You mentioned didn"t think it hit his range. Can you expand on that please .

The expand to full screen didnt seem to work, so I couldnt see the detail on the huds. Anything I"m missing.

More of the same would be good  ;).

wizzlet

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 18:02:04 PM »
Wow, you"re much better than me lol, I"ll stay away from Stars cash when youre online!  Seriously though, thanks for the video, very informative and well played, totally crushed your opponents imo :)

AAroddersAA

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 22:43:20 PM »
To start with I think this video watched alone probably makes me look much better than I actually am. I am intentionally playing aggressive and it was working (as luck would have it). I will try and put a losing session together for some balance. If I do a 15 minute session each morning next week I should get a losing one quite quickly I would think. That might be easier for people to critique as when you see people winning pot after pot it is quite easy to think they are just playing amazing which is unlikely to be the case usually. I would like to do it without zoom to be honest but as I am limited to 15 minutes zoom gives me a decent number of hands to show.

As far as the hand where I play the K5 from the cut off goes. I obviously raise intending to steal the blinds. When the button calls me I think he often has a range of pairs, Broadway cards and some suited connectors/Ax hands. The flop looks good to continue on as there is not a lot he can have. He can have diamonds some of the time. I think he has a ten or a middle pair such as 77 or 88 quite a lot. I think the flush draw would often raise, although he can call on the flop. Most of the time people seem to be raising flush draws on the flop though.

I thought the Jd is actually a good card for us to bet again, even though it will sometime hit him. We are betting $1 to win $1.50 which is going to be enough. We need to win the pot 34% of the time to break even. The Jack hits my range quite well and changes quite a lot. It puts another overcard out to the mid pairs in his range and completes a possible flush. Quite often this bet will be enough to make him fold a lot of the tens in his range as they now lose to a lot of hands I would have bet the flop with (I know he shouldn"t, especially against me, but people often will). The only hands that will really continue are flopped monsters like sets and flush draws. I suppose the Ad can also continue but I doubt he has this in his range enough of the time to stop him calling.

Hands that could have called the flop

33      - 2 Combos
66       - 2 Combos
77       - 6 Combos
88       - 6 Combos
99       - 6 Combos
TT       - 2 Combos
AT       - 12 Combos
JT       - 8 Combos
Adxd    - 12 Combos (estimate)

Hands that continue are

Adxd     - 12 Combos
JT       - 8 Combos
TT      - 2 Combos
66      - 2 Combos
33      - 2 Combos
AT      - 6 Combos

So about 32 hands - that will call or raise me

Hands that should fold

77      - 6 Combos
88      - 6 Combos
99      - 6 Combos
AT      - 6 Combos

So about 24 Hands - that will fold

This assumes he is never floating me with nothing hoping to take the pot away which in reality I think happens sometimes.

So we win the pot with a bet about 43% of the time. There is a margin of error in this of course but the Jd on the turn means enough changed from the flop to push out some of the combos of a ten (if the turn had been 4h I would check/fold). This is a very inexact science of course but I am pretty happy with the bet here. It"s a really good discussion though. There is a chance that somebody floated with AJ in position etc but this is pretty unlikely and if they did they are just as likely to have done it with AQ or even KQ (AK should have 3bet pre) in which case I win the pot more often with the bet, although KQ hit a draw so that might impact it as well. Are my numbers fair here or would other people see it differently?
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Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.

AAroddersAA

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 23:37:29 PM »

Just had a very brief look, will look when I get home tonight mate.

First thought, was I right in thinking that your HUD didn"t change at all?

As I think I said, it froze. I had to reboot it to get it working again. PT3 generally works fine with Zoom. It comes back at 10:51 in the video and works from there on.

Saying that I will be upgrading to PT4 as soon as I get around to doing it.
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Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.

Fatcatstu

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 23:43:32 PM »


Just had a very brief look, will look when I get home tonight mate.

First thought, was I right in thinking that your HUD didn"t change at all?

As I think I said, it froze. I had to reboot it to get it working again. PT3 generally works fine with Zoom. It comes back at 10:51 in the video and works from there on.

Saying that I will be upgrading to PT4 as soon as I get around to doing it.


Ah sorry chief, as i said, was looking on my phone at work. Planning on having a good watch in the morning :)
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Charlie44

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 00:08:19 AM »
Not to go overboard Steve but credit where its due. Whilst I was also impressed with your play my comments were more directed at the presentation. At the level it was intended I think it was very good. Your comments were very clear why you were doing what you were doing, which in my experience is not always the case.

MintTrav

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 07:21:02 AM »

Planning on having a good watch in the morning :)


Filthy thing. The lad"s got no shame.
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mporter123

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 09:23:07 AM »

AAroddersAA

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 10:56:00 AM »
Cheers Mark, great response with some very good points. I was intentionally trying to play hype aggression in this video, I think the style will be +EV but it was too full on and needs to be toned down slightly to be optimal, it does not need to be toned down that much though. I am not sure if this style is actually better than multi table ultra tight trying to get paid off when you have it. I suspect this style played well, will result in a better BB/100 but it takes more focus and therefore you have to play less tables so may net less money in the long term as you can play more hands using the other style. I honestly do not know if that is true or not but it is certainly possible. The only thing that makes me wonder is that at this level people fold too much.

The reason it is 15 mins is so that it can be uploaded to you tube. I guess it is easy enough to upgrade my account to make longer ones though. On the weekend I will try and do one of a six max standard table as it will allow the HUD to be used better and will definitely make a better video.

I think your assessment of the way to play the SB is fine/good. I just don"t really agree it is the most profitable way to play the position. I have run tests and just purely raising every unopened pot to 30c and check folding against any resistance will turn a profit. People fold the BB far too often, yeah people will adjust but they just will not play back often enough to make this a losing play. I may sometimes fold the SB in a BvB spot if I am holding trash and know I am likely to get 3-bet but this spot would be rare. Over 20K hands this year I am down $4.57 in the SB. The sample size is pretty small obviously but I would say that raising ATC in an opened pot BvB is +EV. It is a great point for discussion though and I will take these comments on board and look at it in more detail.

The T3 was just a button raise. If I have no info to say that the players are going to play back at me I am pretty much happy to raise almost ATC, at this level people fold far too much and you can win lot"s of money without a showdown. Again people will play back but not often enough to make it unprofitable.

One thing I do disagree with is the 3-betting range you mention. If I 3-bet AT I am doing it as a bluff as if you get action you are usually dominated, you can flat in position and have the best hand against your opponents range a lot which should be profitable. I may still do 3-bet it a lot but when I do I generally want my opponents to fold. Small pairs are bad hands to 3-bet in my mind as they have so much equity post flop. Yeah you can 3-bet and still hit a set but I think it is better to flat call these hands and try and hit a monster. You waste the massive equity of a small pair if you get 4-bet off the pot. I would raise with them and call a 3-bet usually but would not usually 3-bet with them. Obviously there are no hard and fast rules though.

I also think never 3-betting as a pure bluff is OK but again missing some profitable spots, as there are some players who in the player pool who it is profitable to do this against.
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TheSnapper

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 15:42:02 PM »
Some thoughts on 3b bluffing.

It"s all very well to notice a decent spot where a 3b bluff will show immediate profit but we can"t and shouldn"t take every spot that presents itself, if we do we will be very noticeably 3b"ing way too much.

I"d love to hear how some you guys regulate your 3b frequencies?

Currently my preferred method is to add certain hand combo"s to my 3b range opponent dependent, the wider they open the more bluff combo"s. OOP when it"s going to be 3b and give up somewhat often when called, I like to use rag Aces and Kings for their card removal value.

Take a starting point of the pure value 3b range of JJ+ and AK (40 combos) we can create and control a balanced value:bluff ratio by adding....

A2-A5 where Ace is a diamond (16 combo"s) for a 60:40 value to bluff ratio etc. etc.

At the very least this allows us to simply understand the volume of hands we are 3b"ing with.

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Charlie44

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Re: Small 50 hand session recording, your thoughts.
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2013, 15:34:40 PM »

Some thoughts on 3b bluffing.

It"s all very well to notice a decent spot where a 3b bluff will show immediate profit but we can"t and shouldn"t take every spot that presents itself, if we do we will be very noticeably 3b"ing way too much.

I"d love to hear how some you guys regulate your 3b frequencies?

Currently my preferred method is to add certain hand combo"s to my 3b range opponent dependent, the wider they open the more bluff combo"s. OOP when it"s going to be 3b and give up somewhat often when called, I like to use rag Aces and Kings for their card removal value.

Take a starting point of the pure value 3b range of JJ+ and AK (40 combos) we can create and control a balanced value:bluff ratio by adding....

A2-A5 where Ace is a diamond (16 combo"s) for a 60:40 value to bluff ratio etc. etc.

At the very least this allows us to simply understand the volume of hands we are 3b"ing with.




Not really sat down and thought about this before, but has been a good exercise for me. So thanks for the prompt. I have put together an initial strategy would welcome your thoughts.

I think there are 2 issues here. The first is your 3 betting for value range and secondly your 3 bet bluffing frequency/range.

My 3 betting for value range would depend on - the villains PFR range from his current position, whether I am in position compared to him, and the number and type of players yet to act.

So for instance if villain raises in co and does this 40% of time, and I am on the button, my initial reaction would be to 3 bet with top 20%. I would temper with the fact that 2 players yet to act especially if seems to be good reg who may 4 bet light. So may be 15% of my range in this spot - which would be AA-55,AK-A9,AKs-A5s,KQ-KJ,KQs-KJs,QJs. I am not sure that I would want to add many bluffs when I am betting for value. I suppose the difficulty I have is what range do I continue with if I am 4 bet. Its at that stage I need to refer to his 4 betting range and make a judgement.

If the villain does not have a wide PFR range for his position but does have a high 2bet/fold %age it is at this point I think I would tend to add a bluffing range. If your oppo raisses to 3 BBs if you reraise to 7.5 BBs you only need a fold 62.5% of time for it to be profitable, even ignoring the equity if you get called. Clearly with zoom the population of hands is not going to be great but I think if he has folded 2/3 to 3 bet I think that"s enough evidence. I don"t think you need a great hand to do this but I think a playable hand.(I think maybe Q4s is ok but not 83o!) The more players behind the more evidence you want that villain is going to fold. So I would tend to do this when circumstances are best rather than do it when you are dealt specific hands.

I would monitor my 3 betting frequency on a regular basis to make sure it is not getting out of hand. If it is adjust as required.

Also I would tend not to be 3 betting what appear to be weak players so much, especially in position, beacause I would want to play post flop against them. 

Would appreciate your thoughts Brendan or anybody else.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 15:47:52 PM by Charlie44 »