Author Topic: JM 10/9 Hand 1 - Help he's 4 bet me - what do I do now ?  (Read 3195 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Charlie44

  • Silver Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
JM 10/9 Hand 1 - Help he's 4 bet me - what do I do now ?
« on: September 16, 2013, 18:50:42 PM »
I"ve been 4 bet by a guy on the button who I have got 136 hands on and who has attempted to steal 6/6 on the button. What should I be doing here now ? If I flat theres $4 in the pot and I have $8 left.  Should I be shipping even against this guy on the button, with TT? What about 3 bet sizing, is that too small ?

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: $18.51
Hero (SB): $10.00
BB: $7.45
UTG: $14.75
UTG+1: $19.02
UTG+2: $21.00
MP: $10.30
MP+1: $9.85
CO: $12.59

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Td Tc
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, BTN raises to $2.00,

Fatcatstu

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
Re: JM 10/9 Hand 1 - Help he's 4 bet me - what do I do now ?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 20:14:03 PM »
See. How far into his eye we can stick our cards!
England C Captain 2012
World Team Champions England 2013

bear21

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 659
  • Just Do It
Re: JM 10/9 Hand 1 - Help he's 4 bet me - what do I do now ?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 21:04:26 PM »
JAm


mmmm with a scone !!!

AAroddersAA

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2609
Re: JM 10/9 Hand 1 - Help he's 4 bet me - what do I do now ?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 23:27:17 PM »
Mike, you don"t make them easy do you mate? I think a jam here is probably bad though.

We had a discussion about AK in a similar spot the other day, it is the one on my thread in the Blogs section. Well TT plays worse than AK here due to the amount of times he has JJ or QQ. Quite often even people who are stealing wide and 3-betting quite wide will revert to a standard value 4-betting range.

Do we have stats on his Fold to 3-bet or 4-bets? With the lack of any further info on this hand I hate to say it but it is a fold.

I am not sure TT is actually a 3-betting hand here against this player. I would three bet a lot of hands against this player but TT seems OK to call, we will be OOP but we dominate his range. however we do not want to be 4-bet, being OOP sucks though. Hard to say exactly what is right without those extra stats. Three betting for value expecting to get called by worse and raised by better is probably OK.

As played - fold I think.

3-bet sizing - to 75c might well be fine but I like to raise to $1.10 when I three bet. I actually have no idea why but it seems to work. On a related topic, I am currently trying to shift my three betting position from the blinds onto the button as it is so much more profitable.
-----------------------------

Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.

noble1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2518
Re: JM 10/9 Hand 1 - Help he's 4 bet me - what do I do now ?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 11:28:22 AM »
ok just because villain has a high steal % does not mean that adjusting/widening your 3bet value range is correct...

Rodders points out checking his fold to 3bet stat, yes do that but also check his fold to re-steal% as well.. [also learn what is a high fold % and what is not]

on the subject of deciding how to adjust to a suspected aggro stealer -
if his fold to re-steal% is 75% plus then ask yourself this question ""is 3betting TT more profitable than flatting"" look at scenarios like this with the mindset of what is most profitable for you in the long term versus this particular opponent [along with all the reads,info and stats that you might have on villain or players of his type at this buy in level]

in the main against this type in the full ring micros i"d suggest flatting TT will be more EV than 3betting, even if your post flop skills aren"t that great at the moment just mainly having a fit of fold style on the flop if you miss will probably be more profitable than getting yourself in a pickle if you 3bet and getting called or being 4bet..

do your homework on learning how to adjust optimally [and profitably for this buy in] versus this type of opponent..
bet sizing - and why you choose whatever sizing
what you would 3bet for value - AA KK only
is there any reason to add bluffs - what range of hands would you do this with, and how often [as a adjustment to how often you think they flat a 3bet or 4bet you]
a flatting range versus this type of player - which would include AK JJ TT 99 AQ for example which are ok to flat [question for you, why would flatting these be more profitable in this situation long term with your current reads?]

and whilst you learn how to cope with a aggro blind stealer from the blinds it will also get you thinking how you can steal more and recognise when others adjust badly to it..

ps - having a stronger calling range will still put you in some tricky spots such as facing 3 barrels when the flop is Axx after you"ve check called AK on the flop and turn but this will only improve your hand reading in the long term..

loads more finer points to the subject, but get the basic adjustments sorted first would be my advice.

Charlie44

  • Silver Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
Re: JM 10/9 Hand 1 - Help he's 4 bet me - what do I do now ?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 12:12:04 PM »

ok just because villain has a high steal % does not mean that adjusting/widening your 3bet value range is correct...

Rodders points out checking his fold to 3bet stat, yes do that but also check his fold to re-steal% as well.. [also learn what is a high fold % and what is not]

on the subject of deciding how to adjust to a suspected aggro stealer -
if his fold to re-steal% is 75% plus then ask yourself this question ""is 3betting TT more profitable than flatting"" look at scenarios like this with the mindset of what is most profitable for you in the long term versus this particular opponent [along with all the reads,info and stats that you might have on villain or players of his type at this buy in level]

in the main against this type in the full ring micros i"d suggest flatting TT will be more EV than 3betting, even if your post flop skills aren"t that great at the moment just mainly having a fit of fold style on the flop if you miss will probably be more profitable than getting yourself in a pickle if you 3bet and getting called or being 4bet..

do your homework on learning how to adjust optimally [and profitably for this buy in] versus this type of opponent..
bet sizing - and why you choose whatever sizing
what you would 3bet for value - AA KK only
is there any reason to add bluffs - what range of hands would you do this with, and how often [as a adjustment to how often you think they flat a 3bet or 4bet you]
a flatting range versus this type of player - which would include AK JJ TT 99 AQ for example which are ok to flat [question for you, why would flatting these be more profitable in this situation long term with your current reads?]

and whilst you learn how to cope with a aggro blind stealer from the blinds it will also get you thinking how you can steal more and recognise when others adjust badly to it..

ps - having a stronger calling range will still put you in some tricky spots such as facing 3 barrels when the flop is Axx after you"ve check called AK on the flop and turn but this will only improve your hand reading in the long term..

loads more finer points to the subject, but get the basic adjustments sorted first would be my advice.


Wow! just wow! :o :o. This has blown my thinking out of the water but initial reaction it feels so right. I suppose it just adds to my strategy mentioned yesterday for wanting to see flops with poor players. Why settle for winning 3BB if he folds to my 3 bet ?  Only one initial thought though - I am in the small blind here and if I flat here I guess I risk bringing the BB along as well and then I"m looking for a very specific flop.

Many thanks for a very thought provoking post. There"s so much in your post here. I need time to recover and respond  ::)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 12:17:10 PM by Charlie44 »

Charlie44

  • Silver Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
Re: JM 10/9 Hand 1 - Help he's 4 bet me - what do I do now ?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2013, 17:57:23 PM »

also check his fold to re-steal% as well.. [also learn what is a high fold % and what is not]

on the subject of deciding how to adjust to a suspected aggro stealer -
""is 3betting TT more profitable than flatting""
probably be more profitable than getting yourself in a pickle if you 3bet and getting called or being 4bet..

learn how to adjust optimally versus this type of opponent..
bet sizing - and why you choose whatever sizing
what you would 3bet for value - AA KK only
is there any reason to add bluffs - what range of hands would you do this with, and how often [as a adjustment to how often you think they flat a 3bet or 4bet you]
a flatting range versus this type of player - which would include AK JJ TT 99 AQ for example which are ok to flat [question for you, why would flatting these be more profitable in this situation long term with your current reads?]

it will also get you thinking how you can steal more and recognise when others adjust badly to it..




Had time now to think about your comments. As I said previously very thought provoking.

I think if steal/fold higher than 62.5% then you can be easily manipulated and makes sense for regs to 3 bet you all the time and get enough folds for this to be profitable, even without equity on flops when you call. Over the hands I have been playing this month my stat for steal folds is 59.22% which I think is too high. The average for all players is 54.9% which I think is more like the target.  Its a fine line as I am trying to increase my steal percentage and at the same time tring to reduce my fold to steal %age. Inevitavly this will mean I am playing flops with lower holding than I am use to.

I defintely agree that aginst aggro fish you are likely more money playing flops in the long run than 3 betting and risk only winning 4.5 BBs. Just check calling when you think you have the best hand will surely be ev+.

When you have hit your hand I think bet sizing should generally be bigger than normal against weaker opponents as they are more likely to call.

Not sure if there is a need to be adding many bluffs to my 3 betting range because I think theses weaker players are less likely to be observant of 3 betting frequency range. The only reason to add bluffs normally is to add deception and to get called when you have monsters.

A flatting range including AK AQ are good against aggros because I think they are likely to dominate their broadway raising ranges and are more likely to betting or calling 3 streets of value especially when they hit top pair. The JJ,TT,99 ranges are also good when you hit your set, these opponents are more likely to pay you off if they have something especially top pair.

Not sure what is meant by others adjusting badly to steals.

If you have time would appreciate feedback.