Raise fold line really bad here????

[AAroddersAA]

Opponent is 24/17/7 over 125 hands

PokerStars Hand #104741492658: Tournament #794577971, $2.28+$0.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2013/09/28 13:34:42 WET [2013/09/28 8:34:42 ET]
Table "794577971 20" 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: artemius23 (311 in chips)
Seat 2: l VVinner l (1470 in chips)
Seat 3: josebala (2065 in chips)
Seat 4: anton-metran (1730 in chips)
Seat 5: Jacob151623 (1019 in chips)
Seat 6: thejackal302 (1200 in chips)
Seat 7: 33teetwo33 (2940 in chips)
Seat 8: Jodla111 (1465 in chips)
Seat 9: rayemi (1300 in chips)
josebala: posts small blind 25
anton-metran: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 33teetwo33 [Ts Th]
Jacob151623: raises 50 to 100
thejackal302: calls 100
33teetwo33: raises 150 to 250
Jodla111: folds
rayemi: folds
artemius23: folds
l VVinner l: folds
josebala: folds
anton-metran: folds
Jacob151623: raises 769 to 1019 and is all-in
thejackal302: folds
33teetwo33: folds [Ts Th]
Uncalled bet (769) returned to Jacob151623
Jacob151623 collected 675 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 675 | Rake 0
Seat 1: artemius23 folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 2: l VVinner l (button) folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: josebala (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: anton-metran (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Jacob151623 collected (675)
Seat 6: thejackal302 folded before Flop
Seat 7: 33teetwo33 folded before Flop
Seat 8: Jodla111 folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 9: rayemi folded before Flop (didn"t bet)

[bear21]

You have to call !!!

[hi_am_chris]

Not folding here

[Sillbags]

I think I make it 325 and call shove. I"m def inducing here, not raise/folding

[AMRN]

Yep - never 3b folding, especially against a 20bb stack

[Swinebag]

strange one this. Was the plan to 3 bet and fold to a shove? Or was it "I have TT so I"ll 3 bet - **** he"s shoved, better fold then?". Can"t believe the latter hence the "strange one"

In the absense of UTG stats (and yours) and pre antes, I don"t think folding pre is too bad here, but once you 3 bet you have to call this off. You can"t narrow villains range that much, purely on a 20BB 4 bet shove.

Have you seen any hands he played to lose his chips with that convinced you to take this line?

I assume you are raising for value, so getting shipped on by the villain has to be part of the plan, so you have to call.

[AAroddersAA]

The plan was 3-bet fold, I agree it looks horrid but how bad is it really in these games?

[Charlie44]

Sorry to bore you with the maths. It appears relatively early in the tourney so Cev same as $ev.

I make it 769 to call with a pot of 1444 which means you need 34.7% chance of winning pot. If you assume he is only doing this with AA-JJ, AK. then you will win 35.7%, so the call is marginally ev+ even against this tight range. Start to add on smaller pairs and AQ and you get a signicantly big ev+ and a must call IMO.

[AAroddersAA]

Sorry to bore you with the maths. It appears relatively early in the tourney so Cev same as $ev.

I make it 769 to call with a pot of 1444 which means you need 34.7% chance of winning pot. If you assume he is only doing this with AA-JJ, AK. then you will win 35.7%, so the call is marginally ev+ even against this tight range. Start to add on smaller pairs and AQ and you get a signicantly big ev+ and a must call IMO.

How tight is that starting range for a 4-bet shove in these though, I would certainly not include AQ and would not include all combos of AK. Smaller pairs are unlikely also.

[Swinebag]

The plan was 3-bet fold, I agree it looks horrid but how bad is it really in these games?

Just seems too good a hand to turn into a bluff. Were you 3bet folding a huge range against a perceived light UTG range?

JOOI what else are you 3b folding here, and what are you calling off with? Is it just that TT is the top of you 3bfold range and JJ is the bottom?

I"d rather fold pre than 3b fold TT here.

[TheSnapper]

what range are you guys assigning to the utg open raise?

Is TT really a pure value 3b here?

[Swinebag]

what range are you guys assigning to the utg open raise?

Is TT really a pure value 3b here?

don"t think so Bren, but it is too good a hand to bluff with IMO. More I think about it, I prefer the fold pre

[AAroddersAA]

I have no idea what his UTG range is from lack of any other info it is fairly wide. His 4-bet range is probably QQ+ and does not include all combos of AK. The 3-bet is not a bluff, you can 3-bet fold for value as you can be called by worse but in these are almost never raised by worse. However this may be the worst thread I have ever posted in this section as it looks like such a clear and simple call of the shove or just flat call preflop (with the plan of trying to get it in on any flop not containing an ace or picture). It is a spot so specific to these games and I cannot think of a situation outside of the 180 manners on Pokerstars where I might think this is any good.

However I am not at all convinced that what I did here isn"t the best play however bad it looks. Sorry though guys bad thread for a number of reasons, ignore me when I post such bad threads in the future *lol*

[Swinebag]

Fair play Steve. Spot specific you can justify most plays.

I get your thought process and it makes sense but if you post these on PHA people are only going to give standard lines when faced with minimal info