Omaha Zoooooom hand

[Fatcatstu]

We dont get enough omaha hands posted on here, so lets try this one.

Just playing a little session on stars and the following happened, for me its a really interesting hand

Have talked through my thought process on facebook, so thought i would post it here and see what people think.

PokerStars Zoom Hand #109449505941:  Omaha Pot Limit ($0.02/$0.05) - 2014/01/02 10:35:45 WET [2014/01/02 5:35:45 ET]
Table "Lynx" 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: airwalk666 ($3.56 in chips)
Seat 2: menoanu ($6.65 in chips)
Seat 3: pechardi ($2.54 in chips)
Seat 4: thomas255912 ($8.28 in chips)
Seat 5: fioronero ($5.84 in chips)
Seat 6: fatcatstu ($7.30 in chips)
menoanu: posts small blind $0.02
pechardi: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to fatcatstu [A d As Tc]
thomas255912: folds
fioronero: folds
fatcatstu: raises $0.12 to $0.17
airwalk666: calls $0.17
menoanu: folds
pechardi: folds
*** FLOP *** [ Ts]
fatcatstu: bets $0.30
airwalk666: calls $0.30
*** TURN *** [ Ts] []
fatcatstu: bets $0.70
airwalk666: calls $0.70
*** RIVER *** [ Ts ] []
fatcatstu: checks
airwalk666: bets $2.32
fatcatstu:  

[Paulie_D]

Stu,

I"m pretty much done with this hand on the flop...unless you have a monster read on the villain. You have no draw and a bare overpair.

Nothing wrong with the flop bet but once he calls that I"m going to let him make the running and check and see if he bets.

He"s called you all the way and at the end you have a lousy 2 pair.

The average winging hand in Omaha is trips and you have less that that.

Easy fold.

[Fatcatstu]

Stu,

I"m pretty much done with this hand on the flop...unless you have a monster read on the villain. You have no draw and a bare overpair.

Nothing wrong with the flop bet but once he calls that I"m going to let him make the running and check and see if he bets.

He"s called you all the way and at the end you have a lousy 2 pair.

The average winging hand in Omaha is trips and you have less that that.

Easy fold.

OK, so any thoughts on what his hand may be Paulie?
Very interested in your deeper thoughts on this, as you are a good PLO player, i will post up some of the discussion I had on facebook for folks to have a look at.

[MintTrav]

I don"t get it Stu - you"ve got nothing much.

I"m interested to know why you say this is "a really interesting hand". Is it because you have the blocker to the nut flush? The board pairing has removed that as an interest.

[Fatcatstu]

I don"t get it Stu - you"ve got nothing much.

I"m interested to know why you say this is "a really interesting hand". Is it because you have the blocker to the nut flush? The board pairing has removed that as an interest.

More because I think it is interesting to think about what hands the villain is likely to have in this situation.

Its all well and good people jsut posting "fold" or "your hand is ****" but nobody seems to think about what hands people are likely to turn up with in this spot, and the thoguht processes that people can go though to help make different decisions.

[AAroddersAA]

I don"t get it Stu - you"ve got nothing much.

I"m interested to know why you say this is "a really interesting hand". Is it because you have the blocker to the nut flush? The board pairing has removed that as an interest.

More because I think it is interesting to think about what hands the villain is likely to have in this situation.

Its all well and good people jsut posting "fold" or "your hand is ****" but nobody seems to think about what hands people are likely to turn up with in this spot, and the thoguht processes that people can go though to help make different decisions.

Not going to comment on the actual hand as I know the outcome but in my opinion we should be looking at what we think our opponent could have at each stage. Given that we have no real info on our opponent we can go with population tendencies here.

What is our opponent likely to have called us with preflop, this range is quite wide. Then what is he flatting us with on the flop, rather than folding or raising. How does the turn card effect that range and what has changed? What hands do you thing he flat calls with again? What does he have once the river card is down. Should we be trying to value bet/bluff the river or should we check/call or check/fold?

Finally once we have got all of this what is the right decision on the river and what do we read into his bet sizing?

Hope this helps, ignore it if it doesn"t, I usually talk waffle tbf  

[Fatcatstu]

So, my thoughts on the hand (taken from a convo on Facebook with Rodders)

Pre flop

Im obv potting pre as i have them AA with a suit to, easy enough in these games
he flats, not too much of a shock really.

Flop

flop is not too bad, but the hh being out is a bit annoying. I have top pair and an overpair anyway, so it definitely another bet, im trying to take it down ther and then, i might actually want to bet a bit bigger in future, but if he re raises me i can get away for a bit cheaper, as i fold to any aggression

Turn

turn gives me 2 pair and avoids the FD hitting, so i am pretty confident i am ahead at this point in time. Straight draw missed too, so i need to try and take this down here and now, as i hate the river most of the time.


What am i putting my oppo on at this point in time?
straight and flush draws mainly, with possibly QQxx or mayyyyybe KKxx but mainly draws. If he hasnt got draws then he should be betting hands that beat me strongly to get me off them, as i can easily have combo hands that he wont like the look of, unless he has the combo hands himself

(there is a bit of chat going back and forth, i wont put rodders thought sin the middle, as i dont have his permission, he can give them later if he likes)

he will probably raise a strong flush draw as a semi bluff, and would have raised sets on the flop, so its probably the straight draw IMO

The River

looks on the face of it to be a horrible card, however a backdoor FD gets there, but i cant see that many hands with a 9 in it that he has.

i have decent showdown value with my weakish 2 pair, so i am sure checking is the right move
then he sits there for age before making a pot sized bet

he has had to summon up the courage to do it, and then waved the biggest stick he can at me in the hope that it scares me off

[Paulie_D]

OK, so any thoughts on what his hand may be Paulie?
Very interested in your deeper thoughts on this, as you are a good PLO player, i will post up some of the discussion I had on facebook for folks to have a look at.

I don"t play Zoom...or online much at all but I have no history on this guy....and without some feel for whether he"s a calling station with a bare flush or straight draw it"s hard to assign a meaningful range.

He may have a bare nine for all you know but you are still beaten but pretty much anything other than a naked bluff.

[MintTrav]

Fold. Your hand is ****.

[AMRN]

I kind of agree with most of your thinking Stu. You have to c-bet in this spot, and the flop is perfectly good to c-bet.  Once  called, you can narrow his range down a little, and I think it"s fairly safe to exclude sets given his lack of aggro with a FD on board.  The turn is a good card for you although it actually does little to improve your hand vs his range - ie if he had top two pair, he was and is still ahead.... if he had one pair, you were already ahead.

The river is as bad is it could be, pairing the board and putting a flush out there (the flush should be irrelevant given the paired board plus your NF blocker, but this is 0.02/0.05 zoom, and anything goes at times!)........... when you check the river scare card, he has a great spot to bluff if he has missed his own draws.  Yes, the river is reasonably likely to have put him in front, however if he is a decent player, it"s also the abso-perfect bluff card (I would pot in his spot every time on that river when checked to me).

Whilst I agree that this is probably a fold, I can see merits for calling - you have a bluff-catching hand.  

[deanp27]

I guess you were preparing to check call as villain has a load of missed draws in his range?
I like your play until the river, I think you can VB the turn as you have improved and his likely holdings can still be draw heavy.

I know people in this thread are saying your hand is not very good by the river (which is fair enough) but you should be more interested on what the villains range is likely to be. He probably raises sets and maybe T9xx on the flop so it is hard for him to have a boat and is he going to VB bare 9xxx so hard on the river with the BD flush coming in?

Folding is fine and I have no problems with check/folding at all. Bet/folding is unlikely to be good as there isn"t a lot weaker that will call.

However his sizing is really suspicious and looks quite polarising. Given the amount of draws that have missed I am really tempted to call as i am a curious cat, although not as keen given there is a possibility of BD flush that he is somehow overvaluing in his betsize. I might call and make a note.

Not an Omaha expert but thought I"d just try and give an alternative view than easy fold.

[hi_am_chris]

Out of interest would everyone still be folding if that was the 9 of Clubs?

Soooooooo many draws miss

[dwh103]

Your line is fine, but you"re overthinking. The villain doesn"t even have a full buy in on the table playing /5c Zoom - "forensic" analysis of what he can/can"t have is a waste of time and energy. Profiling your opponent is as simple as "he"s not likely to be any good" - I don"t think giving him credit for possibly semi-bluff raising a big flush draw on the turn is particularly realistic. In general, strength = strength, so you"re looking at mediocre showdown or draws for his range down the streets imo.

I like your bet sizing, your aim is simply to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, you could perhaps block bet river v v small as the % of Villains who are going to bluff raise here is tiny.

The timing out before potting is pretty suspicious, but I need a better reason to call here. You beat a busted heart or straight draw that didn"t have spades, and you can"t rule out hands that should"ve bet earlier, or shouldn"t bet here at this level. Make a note and move on.

[MintTrav]

I think Dave has it spot on. I understand your reasoning Stu but, unless you have reason to do so, you can"t assume that you are against a good player. I have made the mistake, more than once, of assuming that someone else would have played the hand the same way I would if I had particular cards. You may have won this hand for all I know but, at this level, you don"t need to make hard polarised calls to be profitable.

[pokerpops]

At these stakes it"s 100% about population tendencies until you have evidence to suggest that someone knows what they are doing.
We have to call $2.32 to win $4.64? 2:1? Easy fold on the river, and that general rule won"t be changed by you showing HH that proves calling was right because for every once you"re right there you are going to be wrong way more than twice.


It"s a misdeal anyway, you have too many hole cards.