Tricky spot?

[kevod85]

Playing the Mini Roller on Sky last night, will keep the cards hidden for now

Blinds 40/80, 6 max

Hero 4.3k
Villian 1 775
Villain 2 5.1k

Were UTG and raise to 240

Villain 1 in SB shoves, as you would expect. Have played live and online against before, Sky Reg usually pretty solid but irrelevant in this spot.

Villain 2 in BB flats.... Not much info on this player, not played many hands and not really seen them get to showdown. Assume to be TAG.

What is our range for shoving here?
Is there any hands you would flat behind with?
What would the BB"s range be here?

[wizzlet]

4 bet shove range QQ+, AKo, AKs

Flat range - Assuming we were fairly sure the short stack was shoving most of his range then my opening range is way to strong to fold there with the odds we are getting, so I"m flatting everything worse than my 4bet range above.

No much idea what the BBs range is there, very player dependent and it is on Sky... but hazarding a guess any pair, any broadway, any decent unsuited ace, any suited ace, or decent suited single and two gappers like J9s, T9s etc

[AMRN]

I think there are far too many other important dynamics missing to be able to make any informed judgement (ie how close to the money, etc)

[kevod85]

no where near the money Steve, only about an hour into tourney

[s4ooter]

How is villain 2 perceived. If a fish I think we can ISO wider. TT+, AJo+ etc if we can get him to fold, giving ourselves better pot odds for our likely flip.

Your hand is important, as if we have Ax it"s easier to do with the blocker also

[AMRN]

Two schools of thought...

1. He has flatted a shove after your raise, and more often that not that"s a sign of weakness and an opportunity for you to exploit with a shove to isolate and reach showdown with the shortstack with dead money in the pot.

2. If you flat behind, with a dry side pot, it"s much easier to play the hand post flop as bluffs from him are unlikely.

From my perspective, early doors in the tourney, with weak/marginal hands, I call for value knowing post flop play will usually be straightforward. With strong hands AQs+, TT+, I re-raise... and we"ve already seen him call against strength, so have to assume he has something he wants to see a flop with, so I think we can re-raise large enough that we theoretically commit stacks.

[kevod85]

Dan, Villain 2 has not played that many hands. From what I have seen I"ve got him down as an ABC type of player who doesn"t really get out of line.

Steve, point 1 is my usual thought process in this situation but as mentioned above it goes against the kind of plays he has been making and the image i have rightly / wrongly given him.

Our hand is AKo

[s4ooter]

It goes in here i think

We have the A and K blockers and miss the flop enough to just get it in

[hi_am_chris]

Don"t like flatting here prefer just to get it in here with AK,

If he folds it"s extra dead money in the pot and if he calls just win the flip...

[pokerpops]

Putting ourselves in Villain 2 s shoes for a moment...

Don"t we flat AA/KK here? Villain 1 has done our dirty work by 3 betting and now we can leave the orig raiser to hang themselves with AK and lots of other stuff.
We (villain 2 still) are more likely to raise AQ/AK type stuff and smaller pairs because they are the ones we want to play against Villain 1.

[TheSnapper]

Putting ourselves in Villain 2 s shoes for a moment...

Don"t we flat AA/KK here? Villain 1 has done our dirty work by 3 betting and now we can leave the orig raiser to hang themselves with AK and lots of other stuff.
We (villain 2 still) are more likely to raise AQ/AK type stuff and smaller pairs because they are the ones we want to play against Villain 1.

^^ This

Unless we are a no hoper in the game, it is wise to just avoid this marginal spot.

[hi_am_chris]

But that"s assuming he thinks like "us" also at these stakes a big chance he cold calls there with kq kj aj middling pairs they fold to a jam, would need some proof the player was competent. Can also look at it the other way that you want proof that"s he"s bad.

[TheSnapper]

But that"s assuming he thinks like "us" also at these stakes a big chance he cold calls there with kq kj aj middling pairs they fold to a jam, would need some proof the player was competent. Can also look at it the other way that you want proof that"s he"s bad.

We don"t have much to go on here by way of reads which is the deciding factor in this spot, hence marginal. So you could guess, I suspect it"s an indifferent spot unless you happened to be flipping for 50+ bb"s with a guy you have a huge edge over.

[kevod85]

Putting ourselves in Villain 2 s shoes for a moment...

Don"t we flat AA/KK here? Villain 1 has done our dirty work by 3 betting and now we can leave the orig raiser to hang themselves with AK and lots of other stuff.
We (villain 2 still) are more likely to raise AQ/AK type stuff and smaller pairs because they are the ones we want to play against Villain 1.

^^ This

Unless we are a no hoper in the game, it is wise to just avoid this marginal spot.

The average player on Sky is not cold calling with AA/KK due to lack of info on him i had to put him in this bracket. I took the line of thought that he has to have a AK/Q10 type hand and wants to see a flop. So based on that i moved all in, assuming he"d fold this this type of hand and leave me to flip for the dead money with the shorty.

He called,

Ended up AK v QJ ( vil 2) v A3

Didn"t end well obviously!

Spiked the Q