how many people use this board?

[noble1]

I do enjoy talking strategy , theory and poker in general etc. I have tried to use this forum before but the replies and traffic seem sparse , any reason ??

If anyone views this   , here is a question for you , what are the essential skills in tournament no-limit poker. To get it going i will state two that i think are important , the whys can come later .

1 Surviving
2 Playing without cards

[hi_am_chris]

Patience, aggression, possiton = Happiness

[Chipaccrual]

Let me enlighten you with my views.  I should stress that these should not be followed and are just the thoughts of someone who doesn"t play poker very well.

I think you are right about being able to play with no cards.  It"s fairly easy to shove your chips in with premium and majority of the time you will get paid, whether you maximise your return or not is another thing.

My main suggestion revolves around the decision as to what you are prepared to put your tournament life on the line for ?

The nuts ?
Two pair on the flop ?
A set ?
Nuts flush draw ?

Far too many people, me included, seem happy to have gone out to what amounts to a less than 50/50 gamble.

I would say one major skill is knowing when to gamble and when to wait for another hand.

Good post btw.  

[Roscopiko]

For me the best players always win the maximum and lose the minimum from their premium hands and that gives them their edge.

[noble1]

Thanks guys for the replies  

My thoughts on the 2 skills i stated.

1 Surviving
mtt play is a juggle act between being patient [very important] and yet to carefully pick your spots [ones that you can win] to gain chips. I dont mean throw ALL your chips into a pot on a foolish bluff,being reckless is not a good habit to acquire . Wait for your spots to use the hammer , patience has this funny habit of suddenly bringing good situations to find you. Cards and situations do come along you just need to be around when they come [surviving]

2 Playing without cards
Mtt poker compared to cash play is entirely different beast,ever increasing blinds means you cannot wait for strong hands.I see so many players making this mistake,it is good that they have the patience but alas it makes them predictable and their chances of picking up chips will be few.You have got to forget your hand and in certain situations PLAY THE PLAYER , when you sense weakness no matter what 2 cards you hold,you use your primary weapon,your CHIPS,pounce on them and bet them off there hand and take there chips. Bluffing , its the beauty of poker so put on your seat belt , strap up , make that bluff and hope you dont get your tail feathers clipped  

right i"ll shut up now    here are 2 more what i think are essential mtt skills

3. Being aggressive
4. Knowing when to back down from a hand

any other thoughts you guys have will be most appreciated , it gets my grey matter cells ticking over.

[AMRN]

For me the best players always win the maximum and lose the minimum from their premium hands and that gives them their edge.

Agree, but would suggest that the very best players will win whether they have premium hands or not.  The majority of the time, the actual cards are irrelevant.  Position and circumstance are key, and often more important than the cards themselves.

IMO major showdowns only occur when two big hands clash, whether that be two premium hands, or premium hand vs disguised drawn hand.

Players like Allen Cunningham are expert at grinding away at lesser players early on and building their stack, often and usually with no cards at all. 

I suspect the top players could get through the first few levels of a MTT without ever showing any cards, yet significantly developing their stack.... therefore QED the cards are irrelevent.

[TopPair2Pair]

I do enjoy talking strategy , theory and poker in general etc. I have tried to use this forum before but the replies and traffic seem sparse , any reason ??

This section does have few and far between posts but then I dont think its ever going to be a FCP, 2+2, etc, type of strategy forum. When a good post comes along everyone contributes just the right amount to keep things nice and simple!!

If anyone views this   , here is a question for you , what are the essential skills in tournament no-limit poker. To get it going i will state two that i think are important , the whys can come later .

IMO its all about a "lock" and "key" poker, lots of nut chasing limps for an easy double up situation(s) for the early part. Online poker is so unpredictable that is a sure way into the top 10% of play, but again t"is just my opinion.

Oh and never bluffing into a monster! that always hurts.   :"(

[noble1]

Toppietwo i agree that in online poker mtts micro stakes to $100 can be unpredictable and you have to dumb down a bit against certain types of players.You know the type they only think about there own cards or whose primary motivation is not getting bluffed out of a pot , hence dumb down to fit the skill level of your opponent or opponents. $100 + there are far more better players who think on multiple levels eg - they analyse the implications of your betting patterns,past history at the table,hand ranges,what hand does my opponent think i have, false tells are they faking etc etc and they reach far different conclusions about your hand than someone at the lower levels of play.
Yes unfortunately if your opponents are not focused , you have to play a different style , a wise man once said to me -
"you can jump up and down and wave your arms like a mad man but it is no good if your observer is a blind man"  a quote that fits many poker players , observation is not there strongest suit.

[smileriraq]

One of the reasons i like this forum is because there is a steady but not horrendous amount of posts , on the more popular sites you log on to "view" unread messages and there are PAGES of new posts it can get a bit much. Also there are very few pretentious know alls on this site and the posts are for the most part have very little jargon

as for the MTT I have won a freeroll and made a few other final tables but in every MTT ive been succesful in theres come a point where you have to stake it all on the percentage chance of hitting the right card.

You also have to have belief in yourself when i first started I used to get intimidated by the big stacks when approaching the money, thinking I wasnt good enough and that theese guys were sharks , turns out I was wrong and most players are just like me and you with the same insecuritiies ,fears. Once you can get past that mental block your approach to a MTT will be a lot stronger.

Ive also developed an attitude where I play to win now rather than just make the money (though admittedly thats easier to do in a freeroll as opposed to when youve paid the buy in)

Sorry im rambling .................

[noble1]

smileriraq  QUOTE:
as for the MTT I have won a freeroll and made a few other final tables but in every MTT ive been succesful in theres come a point where you have to stake it all on the percentage chance of hitting the right card.

vERY TRUE and you have to pick your spots with imo a made hand , if you ever have some time to spare,check out annette_15 hand histories on pxf.One thing that i think would help many poker players is her 500k win on full tilt.The key to annettes win is aggression but not in a maniac way , she never calls a raise for 300 hands , she is the raiser or the re-raiser [and the re-raises are with strong hands and you will be surprised that she does that very few times] and for all the hype that she is loose aggressive is complete nonsense , she makes moves yes BUT she does it as the raiser and knows when to back down if there is resistance   she is very good at adapting to table dynamics and doesnt over do any each style switching gears at the right times and slowing down again at the right points.Also congratulations
smileriraq on your wins a freeroll is no easy feat, its not easy weaving a passage through so many weak players.

Here is a hand history of a point in a mtt where it was required to show heart and also what do you think of villians shove ?

Full Tilt Poker Game #3846049515: $45 000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (28527294) Table 12 - 200/400 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:30:11 ET - 2007/10/13
Seat 1: Brundaddy (4 395)
Seat 2: MoormanI (8 455)
Seat 3: Robbieoz (7 904)
Seat 4: UCallwthWHAT (15 400)
Seat 5: Damiancho123 (10 475)
Seat 6: Cmoney3 (9 120)
Seat 7: Annette_15 (28 133)
Seat 8: meesun5 (13 830)
Seat 9: goodvibe (3 537)
Brundaddy antes 50
MoormanI antes 50
Robbieoz antes 50
UCallwthWHAT antes 50
Damiancho123 antes 50
Cmoney3 antes 50
Annette_15 antes 50
meesun5 antes 50
goodvibe antes 50
Robbieoz posts the small blind of 200
UCallwthWHAT posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #2

Holecards:
Dealt to MoormanI [  tc  ts ]
Damiancho123 calls 400
Cmoney3 folds
Annette_15 folds
meesun5 folds
goodvibe folds
Brundaddy folds
MoormanI raises to 2,250
Robbieoz folds
UCallwthWHAT folds
Damiancho123 raises to 10,425, and is all in
MoormanI : oh man
MoormanI has 15 seconds left to act
MoormanI has requested TIME
MoormanI : sigh whatever ten plz
Annette_15: hate those days
MoormanI calls 6,155, and is all in
Damiancho123 shows [ ks  ac ]
MoormanI shows [ tc  ts ]
Uncalled bet of 2,020 returned to Damiancho123

Flop:
[ :: :: qd ]

Turn:
[ :: :: qd ] [  th]

River:
[ :: :: qd th ] [  ]
Damiancho123 shows Ace King high
MoormanI shows three of a kind Tens
MoormanI wins the pot (17 860) with three of a kind Tens

SUMMARY:
Total pot 17 860 | Rake 0
Board:
[ :: :: qd th ]
Seat 1: Brundaddy folded before the Flop
Seat 2: MoormanI (button) showed [ tc ts ] and won (17 860) with three of a kind Tens
Seat 3: Robbieoz (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: UCallwthWHAT (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Damiancho123 showed [  ks ac] and lost with Ace King high
Seat 6: Cmoney3 folded before the Flop
Seat 7: Annette_15 folded before the Flop
Seat 8: meesun5 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: goodvibe folded before the Flop

[smileriraq]

hmmmmm

without trying to hijack the thread if I had 10 10 and was reraised all in unless i had a prticuarly good read on the player or was pot committed I would fold , cos your either up against

1) a pp (JJ,QQ,KK,AA)
2) 2 picture cards meaning its a race and do you really want to risk your tournament life on a race (* this is dependant of the size of the blinds and the current stage of tournament)

3) poss but unlikely a lower pp

4) A very good bluff

1 & 2 are the most likely if if its no 4 then either that player has played tight and is making a move which u have to respect or hes loose and will have shown that standard of play on previous hands

nothing wrong with the shove with AK especially if hes trying to steal the blinds and I think that calling with 1010 in that position isnt a particulary good move unless youve got a read on the player

[Departed]

That"s an interesting hand.

My take on it is that once Moorman has raised the UTG limper, he should call the all in as he is getting 2 to 1 on his money which is ok for a villain range of JJ+, AK
(ie TT vs JJ+,AK is about 2 to 1). However, if Moorman has a read that villain only limp shoves with JJ+ then he has to fold TT.

For Moorman to even raise in first place, he would have to think the villains range is at least JJ+,AK, as if villains range for UTG limp is only JJ+ then he should be folding TT every time.

If villains range is wider than JJ+,AK then raising with TT is a must as he needs to raise for value (as calling with TT would not be good).

Also, Moorman also knows what he is doing - isn"t he one of the most successful UK online tournament players?

---

From Damiancho"s point of view, I think it ok to limp shove with AK, as most of time he will pick up an ok pot versus a late position raiser (whose range is probably going to be fairly wide). This is provided that he also limps UTG with weak hands, otherwise a late raisers range is going to be quite tight.

In fact, as he has limped AK UTG I think once Moorman has raised, his only move is a shove as a call would leave himself clueless on the flop OOP, and a fold is just weak. Most of time a shove will pick up the pot, and when it doesn"t he only a big dog to KK,AA.

[noble1]

The principle of equity in poker imo means you should raise with the best hand preflop. There are a number of reasons for raising preflop, such as; reducing the number of players in the pot, buying position, being the aggressor and so on. Equity however is still an important principle that makes it profitable to raise preflop. Not only is it because you may well be getting money in with the best hand and therefore betting for value, but because you are raising the stakes with your raise [GAP THEORY], and creating opportunities to get more money into the pot when you have good equity in the pot later in the hand.
This hand could of played out so differently if damiancho123 had raised pre-flop, the way he has played it with the limp shove is imo such a bad move as his raise has created a situation where he will only be called by a hand thats beating him.
Hmmm my brain hurts , intresting situation this one.

Back to my what skills do i think are required for mtt"s

3 Being Aggressive
You cant win without being aggressive,also aggressive betting gives you 2 ways to win,having the best hand or forcing folds.  [ I think a certain Brunsen and Sklansky touch on this, i guess they know what they are talking about ]

4 Knowing when to back down
It is not agood habit to get married to hands in mtt"s as it results in you losing chips  maybe even elimination.All good players have the guts and ability to lay down a big hand against constant betting pressure , there are a lot of players who do not take note of the warning signs and end up taking big hits. [i think all us have experience of this  :"(  ] Which is where i go back to my earlier skill of survival.

Other skills required.  [Also i think i"ll keep slipping in the odd hand history in this thread as it links up with the mtt skills required]

5 Getting chips
6 Knowing how to use a large chip stack

Departed and smileriraq or anyone , do you think the above HH could of been played out differently, if so , how would you guys approached it ?

[Departed]

This hand could of played out so differently if damiancho123 had raised pre-flop, the way he has played it with the limp shove is imo such a bad move as his raise has created a situation where he will only be called by a hand thats beating him.
Hmmm my brain hurts , intresting situation this one.

I think this limp of AK under the gun would not be a great move in a cash game, for the reason you state (ie only called by hand that beats him) and the pot would be really small if you tried a limp raise.

However in the above tournament situation, if he"s not comfortable playing AK UTG against good opposition post flop, then perhaps you could argue that the limp shove is not such a bad play.

Admittedly he will nearly always only get called when he is behind, but as antes are in play and blinds are now at the medium level, then this play will let him take down the blinds, antes plus the raise that follows a large percentage of time [this assumes the late position raiser raises a fairly wide range, but calls a shove only with a much narrower range] without having to make any difficult post flop decisions.

Also remember that hands like JJ and QQ that might possibly be in the intial raisers calling range, AK is in ok shape against.

OK the play is probably not optimum, but it will avoid difficult decisions later, if someone in late position is likely to raise.

Departed and smileriraq or anyone , do you think the above HH could of been played out differently, if so , how would you guys approached it ?

TBH, I"m not completely sure what I would do in the same situation with AK UTG.
In a real-time game I do not have the time to go through a proper analysis of the situation.

I think it really depends on how the people still to act are playing - I don"t think I could come up with a definite plan, other than I would not fold it. I think most of the time I would probably put in a small raise. TT in late position would then probably still raise and then the decision would depend on what kind of hands he has been reraising in late position.
If he has generally been reraising only strong hands, I would probably fold as if an A or K comes down on flop he is probably not putting more money into pot (say he is reraising JJ or QQ) and I won"t have decent fold equity by shoving pre, but if he reraises with a fairly wide range, I"ll probably shove over the top as my hand is likely to be best and I don"t want to call from OOP.

[noble1]

Departed thanks for the reply and yes i can i see your points on the limp shove but would you do it with AKo against a stack that can virtually cripple you,because as you said the button raise could be a fairly big range.So if we were to raise AK pre flop we would get far more info on the situation and therefore if moorman1 reraised we would be able to narrow his range a lot more,and re evaluate our next action.[also if he called we still get info as we can narrow down a calling/raise range]

My thoughts go along the lines that if i were to open limp utg or +1 then i"d do it with AA or KK if i were on a very aggressive table where raises were happening nearly every hand and if i shoved i"d been sure i was in a 80/20 + situation.
Imo this was a bad way to play AKo due to the fact he had a healthy chip stack and also a 2 and half bb bet pre flop would of given him far more info and also a better chance of taking down the blinds and antes.
The way i like to approach mtts is to get my chips in the pot as much as possible when i"m %70 favourite or more in the hand,be that pre or post flop.In damiancho123 case he"s not really getting his chips in all that great [considering chip stack sizes] its one mistake i see a lot in online mtts where over aggression leads to quick exits.

just a quick edit departed you got me thinking further on this situation [which is good , thank you]
It's simply not enough to realise when your hand is strong and that you need to put your chips in. The artistry comes in getting paid off on your good hands without unduly risking defeat [survival]. It's been said that if you want a call then you bet the highest amount you can get a call with. Conversely, if you want your opponent to fold then you should bet the smallest amount that achieves that objective. It may sound easy but it's a strategy that takes years to hone and may never be perfected,I"m still trying