Showing Cards 2: Do you show??

[rubertoe]

As my previous post led to some discussion, i thought that i"d try again!!

I wondered what peoples views where on showing cards during a hand or after a pot is one (without a showdown)?

Apparently - your not allowed to show a card during a live hand, is this a good idea? or should people be able to show a card to try and glean information?

At the end of the day, they are your cards and if you wanna show people what you have before the end of a hand, then why not?

What about showing a bluff, or do you never show a hand at all unless some one has paid to see it?

My personal view is that i never intentionally show a hand unless its been paid for! ( but i must say that i do deviate from this, everyone loves to show a monster :: ), and that if people wanna show a card during a live hand then let them - it is easier to figure out where your at and where your opponents at when you can see all but one of the cards in play!

Let me know Your thoughts,

Robbie

[mrmacacan]

A player should never show a card or cards to anyone while involved in a hand this I believe is in tournaments, I think cash games are different.

My home tourneys, any player showing any card then his/her hand is dead.

I very very rarely show my cards but some times I have to.

Me and the mrs mac went to Blackpool G on Sunday.

£30 d/c f/o 80+ runners.

drawn on same table, not a problem for us.
We love each other but hate each other at the table. 

Anyway we was playing blinds were getting up a bit.

I looked down at AA, put in a big raise, only 1 caller, yes mrs mac.
Flop was nothing,3 smallish cards so I pushed about 8000 chips.
mrs mac after a while called (she was very well stacked), she turned over gut shot straight draw.
The AA held up, now I thought it was a very bad call, I would think most of the table did as well.
So the next few hands as I was folding and sat there thinking, I thought of the earlier hand with mrs mac.
Then I thought what it might look like, I honestly believe no one at the table thought she was chip dumping but later on we was against each other again, this time I had hit a flush, I put a big bet into a pretty big pot and she folded.
I very very rarely show my cards, but thought I had to show the table my flush just for my piece of mind.

mrs mac went on to finish 12th, well done mrs mac.

[RioRodent]

My home tourneys, any player showing any card then his/her hand is dead. 

This is not a "correct" rule... in most cardrooms** and major tournaments the hand would not be called dead. Intentionally showing cards, while action remains in a hand, is not allowed and should be dealt with by means of a warning and then whatever penalty system has been pre-arranged for repeat offences.

mrs mac after a while called (she was very well stacked),

Was or is? Either way, useless without pictures!!  



Edit -
** Maybe, as can be seen from the reply below, I should qualify this statement!! Perhaps it should read; "In most cardrooms that I have played in..." And I should also state that I have played in more rooms in the US (Vegas specifically) than I have here.

[tumblet]

My home tourneys, any player showing any card then his/her hand is dead. 

This is not a "correct" rule... in most cardrooms and major tournaments the hand would not be called dead. Intentionally showing cards, while action remains in a hand, is not allowed and should be dealt with by means of a warning and then whatever penalty system has been pre-arranged for repeat offences.

This rule I am still confused about..

Senario.. £30 D/C freezeout.. I make a raise with 99, and all folded round to BB, who dwels then pushes her stack in.. I am heads up in the hand and have no read on this person as she has only just joined the table 2 hands earlier, both folds.. Anyway, I am thinking I fancy racing with AK, AQ, but not sure if she has an overpair, so without putting my cards down, I flip the 99 round, to show her, straight away I know she has AK, AQ ish, and decide that I am going to call, BUT, she mucks her cards and the dealer passes her the pot..

I protest, saying I have not folded, but TD says that Gala Rules are hand is dead... ??

Now the reason I did this was, once it was done to me, I did the same thing, but the hand stood, and I was of the opinion it should have been made dead. I asked the question on blonde and all answers said the hand is not dead, so thought these were the rules..

My main thing with situations like this is

a) Do each casino have a set of rules that you can read before you start the game?
b) Why is there no standard set of rules imposed by lets say someone like the GC?

imo, TD"s go by their own rules in things like this, and you will never know what the rule is until something like this happens which may be to late anyway..

[RioRodent]

My home tourneys, any player showing any card then his/her hand is dead. 

This is not a "correct" rule... in most cardrooms and major tournaments the hand would not be called dead. Intentionally showing cards, while action remains in a hand, is not allowed and should be dealt with by means of a warning and then whatever penalty system has been pre-arranged for repeat offences.

This rule I am still confused about..

Senario.. £30 D/C freezeout.. I make a raise with 99, and all folded round to BB, who dwels then pushes her stack in.. I am heads up in the hand and have no read on this person as she has only just joined the table 2 hands earlier, both folds.. Anyway, I am thinking I fancy racing with AK, AQ, but not sure if she has an overpair, so without putting my cards down, I flip the 99 round, to show her, straight away I know she has AK, AQ ish, and decide that I am going to call, BUT, she mucks her cards and the dealer passes her the pot..

I protest, saying I have not folded, but TD says that Gala Rules are hand is dead... ??

Now the reason I did this was, once it was done to me, I did the same thing, but the hand stood, and I was of the opinion it should have been made dead. I asked the question on blonde and all answers said the hand is not dead, so thought these were the rules..

My main thing with situations like this is

a) Do each casino have a set of rules that you can read before you start the game?
b) Why is there no standard set of rules imposed by lets say someone like the GC?

imo, TD"s go by their own rules in things like this, and you will never know what the rule is until something like this happens which may be to late anyway..

a) Yes they do... or should do!
b) Still one of life"s great mysteries... right up there alonside - "Why do toasters always have a setting that burns the toast to a horrible crisp that no one would ever eat?"

If only all cardrooms / tournament organisers would use the Tournament Directors Association rules, the world would be a much better place...

Rule 31. Exposing Cards - A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand.  The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

Full rules available here - http://www.pokertda.com/rules.pdf

[mrmacacan]

I think at casino"s use most of rules are the same then they alter
a few to make them house rules.
Its correct what you say about knowing the rules before hand.
At my game any rules that are lets say house rules, I will inform any new players of them.
Like the one about showing a card or cards to anyone then the hand is dead, others are a if a player is not sat at the table when the first card is dealt they are folded, the TD"s decision is final, his decision will be in his opinion the fairest
and for the best of the game.

I have played in other places (pubs) were they do not adhere to the rules, all this does is causes loads of arguments.
Whatever the rules are the TD must follow them when ever possible and be consistent.

[HaworthBantam]

My home tourneys, any player showing any card then his/her hand is dead. 

This is not a "correct" rule... in most cardrooms and major tournaments the hand would not be called dead. Intentionally showing cards, while action remains in a hand, is not allowed and should be dealt with by means of a warning and then whatever penalty system has been pre-arranged for repeat offences.

This rule I am still confused about..

Senario.. £30 D/C freezeout.. I make a raise with 99, and all folded round to BB, who dwels then pushes her stack in.. I am heads up in the hand and have no read on this person as she has only just joined the table 2 hands earlier, both folds.. Anyway, I am thinking I fancy racing with AK, AQ, but not sure if she has an overpair, so without putting my cards down, I flip the 99 round, to show her, straight away I know she has AK, AQ ish, and decide that I am going to call, BUT, she mucks her cards and the dealer passes her the pot..

I protest, saying I have not folded, but TD says that Gala Rules are hand is dead... ??

Now the reason I did this was, once it was done to me, I did the same thing, but the hand stood, and I was of the opinion it should have been made dead. I asked the question on blonde and all answers said the hand is not dead, so thought these were the rules..

My main thing with situations like this is

a) Do each casino have a set of rules that you can read before you start the game?
b) Why is there no standard set of rules imposed by lets say someone like the GC?

imo, TD"s go by their own rules in things like this, and you will never know what the rule is until something like this happens which may be to late anyway..

a) Yes they do... or should do!
b) Still one of life"s great mysteries... right up there alonside - "Why do toasters always have a setting that burns the toast to a horrible crisp that no one would ever eat?"

If only all cardrooms / tournament organisers would use the Tournament Directors Association rules, the world would be a much better place...

Rule 31. Exposing Cards - A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand.  The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

Full rules available here - http://www.pokertda.com/rules.pdf

This is one of those scenarios where there should be one ruling wherever you play.

Somebody will put me right if I"m wrong, but I believe your hand is dead if you show in the WSOP, but if you do the same thing in the WPT everything is hunkydory.

I have to admit that I prefer the dead hand rule, and enforce it in the tournies that I organise - and it is written clearly in my rules.

[mrmacacan]

I think I should explain why I use these rules.


A, Any cards shown your hand is dead.

If the rule is there that you are not allowed to show anybody your cards and you do, is that not blatantly cheating ?.
So what would be a fair punishment ?.
If a player gained advantage by doing it and won a pot of lets say 60k chips
then another won a pot of 400 chips how could you differ the punishment ?
So IMO the easiest way to rule it is make the hand dead.
If all players know the rule there should never be a problem.

B, A player not in their seat when the first card is dealt.

Some casino"s and card rooms have it as when your first card is dealt.
IMO this gives other players an advantage, seat 10 as longer to get back to the table than seat 1.
It also opens the door for arguments.

I use both these rules, all the players know them and I never have any problems.

[RioRodent]

As poker players, I"m sure we have all asked the question, "Why is there not just one set of rules?" (I guess Tournaments and Cash games need their own variations?)

We have a body of well respected, top tournament directors putting their efforts into the Tournament Directors Association, in an attempt to bring about standarised rule for tournament play. Their (TDA) rules are used at the WSOP (and I assume WSOPE), the WPT and I believe the EPT, the APT, the APPT and the LAPT.

Historically, I believe there were some conflicts with UK Gaming Comission rules, but since the changes, last September, I don"t think there is any reason why TDA rules could not be adopted in the UK.

I think everyone who would like to see one set of rules used everywhere should lobby their local casino / home game organiser and ask why they don"t use TDA rules.

I have asked the question at a couple of places and essentially get the same reply... "Well, the regulars are happy with things the way they are."

Maybe the answer is for more people to ask for change... if we really do wan"t one rule book?

[kinboshi]

This is one of the things that APAT is striving for - a common rulebook.

You play any sport or game for money, and there are pretty much standardised rules across the board.  Not so with poker.

The rule I find amusing is that in many card rooms you can say what you want about your hand when you"re heads up - as long as you don"t disclose what it actually is.  So you can lie, you can tell half-truths, but you cannot actually say what your hand is.

I still don"t know of any justification as to why this is a good rule.  

[RioRodent]

This is one of the things that APAT is striving for - a common rulebook.

You play any sport or game for money, and there are pretty much standardised rules across the board.  Not so with poker.

The rule I find amusing is that in many card rooms you can say what you want about your hand when you"re heads up - as long as you don"t disclose what it actually is.  So you can lie, you can tell half-truths, but you cannot actually say what your hand is.

I still don"t know of any justification as to why this is a good rule. 

I suspect that the history behind not being allowed to verbally "expose" your cards is tied in with not physically exposing your cards.

If one has a penalty then the other must have the same penalty.

[rubertoe]

Cheers for the replies guys,

IMO, the rules that the TDA have (or are trying) to put in should be standardised accross the board for Tournement poker and that way everyone is aware of what they are, before sitting down to play.

I have only played in UK cardrooms and not once have i seen the House rules with regard poker -  I dont doubtrthat they are there - but like most things - they are probably tucked away in a corner behind a slot machine - Great.

With regard the Not "verbally" declaring a hand, this is a stupid rule as well, I could tell you all the Hands that i dont have - and you can figure out what i do have - a bit of a cotradiction if you ask me!!

Either way - from now on - i will look at my cards, cover them with my Budda and then sit in silence untill i"ve either folded or untill the hand is finished - that way i wont break any rules at all!!!

Stay tuned for more exciting topics  (as and when i think of something worth saying) And cheers for the input

Robbie

[CrizzyConnor]

This is one of the things that APAT is striving for - a common rulebook.

You play any sport or game for money, and there are pretty much standardised rules across the board.  Not so with poker.

The rule I find amusing is that in many card rooms you can say what you want about your hand when you"re heads up - as long as you don"t disclose what it actually is.  So you can lie, you can tell half-truths, but you cannot actually say what your hand is.

I still don"t know of any justification as to why this is a good rule. 

This rule REALLY annoys me... I can say something like "Can you beat my Aces?" and if I have pocket Jacks then it"s TOTALLY fine but if I actually have Pocket Aces then I get a warning or penalised?!!? Stupidest rule ever in my opinion...

[noble1]

to answer the original question NO i would not show my cards if i dont have to.
I do not want to give the table any information what so ever as to my style or a slightest inkling of my hand range.I always want to leave everyone guessing a certain Phil Ivey is a great example he never shows , if it works for him its good enough for me  as for showing your monsters why ?? its just a ego thing, imo if you keep your ego in check your poker improves..