WCOAP 2017 - Discussion

[duke3016]

It is only 40 minutes from my house, so I will be driving over and staying sober 

[peripheraldecision]

disappointed to see no stud games and no plo8 or limit o8.

[Paulie_D]

disappointed to see no stud games and no plo8 or limit o8.

There is a PLO8 event..for some reason it doesn"t have a number on Tom's list but it"s on Sun, 16 Apr 17

At least there better be....I"m planning on playing it...if I"m not final tabling the PLO.

As for Stud, there"s enough of that in the 8 game and HORSE.

Frankly, I believe it"s been APAT's experience Stud games take too long and aren"t well supported....or at least don"t generare enough interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

[IrishTom]

disappointed to see no stud games and no plo8 or limit o8.

There is a PLO8 event..for some reason it doesn"t have a number on Tom's list but it"s on Sun, 16 Apr 17

At least there better be....I"m planning on playing it...if I"m not final tabling the PLO.

As for Stud, there"s enough of that in the 8 game and HORSE.

Frankly, I believe it"s been APAT's experience Stud games take too long and aren"t well supported....or at least don"t generare enough interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

The mysterious case of the misplaced #.... sorted now... thanks Paulie

[Sugar_Free]

Frankly, I believe it"s been APAT's experience Stud games take too long and aren"t well supported....or at least don"t generare enough interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

Well they definitely won"t be well supported this year, so if that"s the criteria, they won"t be in next year either.

[Paulie_D]

Frankly, I believe it"s been APAT's experience Stud games take too long and aren"t well supported....or at least don"t generate enough interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

Well they definitely won"t be well supported this year, so if that"s the criteria, they won"t be in next year either.

Fair enough but my second point applies though, I believe.

...or at least don"t generate **enough** interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

These are long comps and, from memory, the number of players able & willing to play them was relatively small. Usually in the 30-40 range again, from memory so I may be off on that.

Certainly, there"s an argument to be made for them but other games, Chinese / Crazy Pineapple / Mixed (ROE NLHE/PLO) seem to be more popular at present, and with an extensive schedule to neogotiate with Grosvenor I guess something had to give.

I suppose we"ll see how popular the alternatives actually are. If they aren"t as supported as is hoped, who knows, we might be able to persuade Tom to try the Stud again next year.

I hope so...I like Stud too.

[Sugar_Free]

...or at least don"t generate **enough** interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

These are long comps and, from memory, the number of players able & willing to play them was relatively small. Usually in the 30-40 range again, from memory so I may be off on that.

Certainly, there"s an argument to be made for them but other games, Chinese / Crazy Pineapple / Mixed (ROE NLHE/PLO) seem to be more popular at present, and with an extensive schedule to neogotiate with Grosvenor I guess something had to give.

I agree with most of that until the last bit. Yes, there"s no room for Stud or Razz, but there"s also no first Monday or Tuesday.

[KarmaDope]

Frankly, I believe it"s been APAT's experience Stud games take too long and aren"t well supported....or at least don"t generate enough interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

Well they definitely won"t be well supported this year, so if that"s the criteria, they won"t be in next year either.

Fair enough but my second point applies though, I believe.

...or at least don"t generate **enough** interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

These are long comps and, from memory, the number of players able & willing to play them was relatively small. Usually in the 30-40 range again, from memory so I may be off on that.

Certainly, there"s an argument to be made for them but other games, Chinese / Crazy Pineapple / Mixed (ROE NLHE/PLO) seem to be more popular at present, and with an extensive schedule to neogotiate with Grosvenor I guess something had to give.

I suppose we"ll see how popular the alternatives actually are. If they aren"t as supported as is hoped, who knows, we might be able to persuade Tom to try the Stud again next year.

I hope so...I like Stud too.

Feel the need to point this out from earlier in the thread:

Why have the Stud and Razz tournaments been dropped yet the OFC and Antes Only left in - when Razz scored more runners than Antes Only and Stud more than OFC last year?

I know from Social Media that there are a few unhappy about this, not just me.

[Paulie_D]

...or at least don"t generate **enough** interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

These are long comps and, from memory, the number of players able & willing to play them was relatively small. Usually in the 30-40 range again, from memory so I may be off on that.

Certainly, there"s an argument to be made for them but other games, Chinese / Crazy Pineapple / Mixed (ROE NLHE/PLO) seem to be more popular at present, and with an extensive schedule to neogotiate with Grosvenor I guess something had to give.

I agree with most of that until the last bit. Yes, there"s no room for Stud or Razz, but there"s also no first Monday or Tuesday.

I"m sure that had more to do with Grosvenor"s operational requirements than APAT's willingness for the event....but who knows?

[MintTrav]

First I"ve heard of Stud not getting support. In fact, I know it"s not true from bitter experience. In 2015, I left work early and travelled from Portsmouth to Aspers for the Stud, but wasn"t allowed to play because the cap had been reached. Any lack of numbers for Stud has been due to the caps imposed.

On the other hand, there are several mixed-games players opposed to the inclusion of OFC. There is a vocal group who want it, but there are many who don"t like it and don"t think it has a place, especially at the expense of Stud or Razz (or even on its own merits).

[peripheraldecision]

First I"ve heard of Stud not getting support. In fact, I know it"s not true from bitter experience. In 2015, I left work early and travelled from Portsmouth to Aspers for the Stud, but wasn"t allowed to play because the cap had been reached. Any lack of numbers for Stud has been due to the caps imposed.

On the other hand, there are several mixed-games players opposed to the inclusion of OFC. There is a vocal group who want it, but there are many who don"t like it and don"t think it has a place, especially at the expense of Stud or Razz (or even on its own merits).

I"m gonna rant here. It"s nothing personal.

Personally I don"t care what other comps are on offer. The fact is that outside home games, live fixed limit anything is extremely rare in the UK, and since it"s being offered here in HORSE and 8-game and has historically been offered in the past in the form of stud games and this tournament series is the only relatively cheap source I know of of fixed limit poker that the UK sees, I would hope the chance to make an effort to keep these dying/dead games from extinction might be taken.

Every single week I am promoting fixed limit poker to the people I meet in home games and live casinos here in Nottingham. All of them look at me with disgust and dubiety and simply don"t understand its appeal. They just want to go ALL IN or bet pot, play for stacks rather than bets, even if it takes more time to play hands and kills the poker economy. I would even go so far as to say that the prevalence of NL/PL poker has massively incentivised and accelerated the sharing of poker strategy (extremely bad for people who want to win in the long run), because nothing makes you scratch your head more in poker than losing your whole stack when justly bested by an opponent, wondering what you strategically did wrong and how you are going to make it better next time. Losing bet by bet, it"s no sweat. Onto the next hand, I"ll just keep doing what I"m doing because I"m still in the game with chips, I only lost a few bets, that doesn"t mean anything.

This second paragraph might seem off topic, but I think it has every relation to the essence of what APAT is. APAT as far as I can tell going by the name of it, "Amateur", is about grassroots poker and catering and promoting the game to recreational players. You might say that everyone pays the same buy-in, it"s not a cash game, so it doesn"t really matter what the betting structure is, but what is promoted in tournaments as we"ve seen since Moneymaker becomes cash games.

I take the point that it may not be viable for the schedule this year, though I do see on the schedule what appears to be 10th, 11th as possible points of allocations of slots for these comps I"m arguing for. Maybe the casino has other plans for those days.

I may be an oddity as a 29 years old with a penchant for poker games and betting structures "only 90 year olds play", but perhaps you will see what I have said and agree with its merits and promote making oddities like me more common.

I love fixed limit so much I travel from Nottingham every year to play the APAT!

[peripheraldecision]

By the way I may as well take the opportunity to request fixed limit tournaments of the following games:
5 Card Draw (Single Draw)
7 Card Stud H/L 8/b
7 Card Stud
Razz
Omaha H/L 8/b
2-7 Triple Draw

Other more exotic ideas:
2-7 Triple Draw, Badeucey, Badacey mix
Courchevel H/L 8/b
Swedish/"Sviten"/"Drawmaha" (5 Card Omaha/5 Card Draw Split) - definitely the best poker game I have ever played!

[IrishTom]

Frankly, I believe it"s been APAT's experience Stud games take too long and aren"t well supported....or at least don"t generate enough interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

Well they definitely won"t be well supported this year, so if that"s the criteria, they won"t be in next year either.

Fair enough but my second point applies though, I believe.

...or at least don"t generate **enough** interest to make it worthwhile putting them on.

These are long comps and, from memory, the number of players able & willing to play them was relatively small. Usually in the 30-40 range again, from memory so I may be off on that.

Certainly, there"s an argument to be made for them but other games, Chinese / Crazy Pineapple / Mixed (ROE NLHE/PLO) seem to be more popular at present, and with an extensive schedule to neogotiate with Grosvenor I guess something had to give.

I suppose we"ll see how popular the alternatives actually are. If they aren"t as supported as is hoped, who knows, we might be able to persuade Tom to try the Stud again next year.

I hope so...I like Stud too.

Feel the need to point this out from earlier in the thread:

Why have the Stud and Razz tournaments been dropped yet the OFC and Antes Only left in - when Razz scored more runners than Antes Only and Stud more than OFC last year?

I know from Social Media that there are a few unhappy about this, not just me.

Well, it"s obviously not all about numbers, but taking that into consideration alongside discussions with the venue, time slots with start/finish times, staffing, overall schedule with an 8-Game and HORSE... we can"t always run every event, and some things have to give at times... and a few may be unhappy at some things, but am sure a few are happy that OFC and other events are a part of WCOAP as opposed to Stud or Razz...  that"s just the nature of the beast.  

This all does not mean Stud or Razz will not be in S11 WCOAP... that will depend on many things, including discussions with whichever venue, and what we have learned from previous, including S10, WCOAP.

We all know we can"t please everyone, so some will be disheartened whilst others are happy, and obviously APAT has to make those decisions taking everything into account.

Onwards and upwards, and hoping not to make anyone unhappy...

[IrishTom]

First I"ve heard of Stud not getting support. In fact, I know it"s not true from bitter experience. In 2015, I left work early and travelled from Portsmouth to Aspers for the Stud, but wasn"t allowed to play because the cap had been reached. Any lack of numbers for Stud has been due to the caps imposed.

On the other hand, there are several mixed-games players opposed to the inclusion of OFC. There is a vocal group who want it, but there are many who don"t like it and don"t think it has a place, especially at the expense of Stud or Razz (or even on its own merits).

And there are many who don"t like Stud or Razz, and many who love OFC or would love to try it in a casino, real money buyin environment...

Last year (or was it the year before!?) we tried to introduce non-NLHE/PLO events to the APAT Tour with a view to providing the opportunity to play them, build the interest and take it forward.  Regrettably they didn"t get the support needed, therefore we were restrained to take them forward... (this isn"t particularly aimed at this discussion around Stud/Razz in WCOAP).

What really helps, is seeing support, both live and online, for non-NLHE/PLO events that gives us a little hope that they may be supported and we can therefore have a degree of confidence in our discussions with venues.  I know Leigh is keen to continue with this theme online... so here"s hoping.

This conversation could just go on and on and on based around individual preferences, so thankfully it is APAT who make the decisons, and not individuals, otherwise a schedule would never be agreed!... and in the HOPE that, overall, we give a balanced APAT Season whilst remaining committed to bring non-NLHE events to members year on year... but we can"t always give YOU want YOU want (not aimed at YOU personally John).

As we complete our discussions with G BNR, we"ll be confirming all details for WCOAP, including max numbers for each event, in the coming week or so.

I for one am hugely looking forward to WCOAP, especially the Team Championship where hopefully we will have a good increase in teams participating.

Hope to see you there.

[Big Club]

I, like you Peripheral, am a massive advocate of limit poker in all forms. I don"t think most people appreciate the true nuance"s of these games and prefer the gamble and variance of nl/pl games. Not that that stops these people complaining when variance bites them on the proverbials. This of course is the opinion of the masses and every provider including APAT has to tailor their offering to the majority of their client base.

APAT to their absolute credit though are the only operator offering these games at any kind of buy in level especially at the incredible value of a £50 buy in. I would love to see Stud and Razz on the schedule but we need to be grateful that APAT continue break the mould by including Horse, OFC, O8 and others that other tour operators would never dare take the risk on. All of this is without even mentioning the hugely successful 8 game players championship from last year and will no doubt prove to be even more popular this year. Another example of the community clamoring for an offering, APAT listening and supplying.

I"m sure, dealers and space permitting, that we could arrange a mixed game cash table one night. If we can get the numbers I"m sure Tom would be happy to arrange something with the cardroom. I"ll be there all week and can see this being a lot of fun, so I"ll kick off the list by proposing Tuesday night (good practise for the horse the next day) either £1/£2 or £2/£4 with 50p/£1 ante/bring in for stud games. Who"s in?

Simon