For Your Amusement

[noble1]

Level 0: I know nothing
Level 1: What do I have?
Level 2: What does my opponent have?
Level 3: What does my opponent think I have?
Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think they have?
Level 5: What does my opponent think that I think they think I have?

so what level would you put your opponent on?
As i said earlier if your opponent is thinking about your hand and bet patterns , why the min raise?

that is why i think even if a heart came on the river he will call you no matter what,the fact he has a bigger stack than you and afford a hit if wrong i would also factor in,the min raise says he either knows what he is doing or that he is clueless.
Bluffing clueless players is a waste of time.
You got lucky and hit a 2 outer on the river all said and done...if you look at his stats , he is very inexperienced which also leads me to think he call the river no matter what also i think with a -86% roi he is still a level 0 thinker.

Please please do not try and delude yourself into thinking that your play would of been successful if a heart came [you do not know that] but with just this 1 hand and the way it has been played out i would not even be 10% sure that he"d fold the river heart.
So please learn from this and still use a bluffing stategy [keep to a minimum in lower stakes] but learn from mistakes and improve your reading of players.
Good strong play mixed in with strong hands and optimal bluffing at the lower levels will improve your mtt game by leaps and bounds.

[Jon MW]

Level 0: I know nothing
Level 1: What do I have?
Level 2: What does my opponent have?
Level 3: What does my opponent think I have?
Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think they have?
Level 5: What does my opponent think that I think they think I have?

...

You say you think he"s at level 0, but your description puts him on level 1, and I think he was on level 2.

...
Good strong play ...

Yes. I like this idea.

[noble1]

i do not state what level he is on, i ask you that................

also the opinion i have of him based on this play is that he is a clueless idiot,so whatever level you want to assign him is fine with me.
does this say anything about my opinion of your explanations and your play and the fact you still think you played this hand %100 correctly which will benefit your poker game armoury  ... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

please check a time to reflect the above post is it MR DEFENSIVE or is it MR EGO      

[Jon MW]

... the fact you still think you played this hand %100 correctly ...

This is not the only example, but ...

I may not have played this technically correct  
...

...

ii. I did make a mistake, I don"t  mind admitting that.

...
The mistake I made was ...

... my mistake, ...

...(which I didn"t spot)...

... which I didn"t pick up on.
...

You might want to work on your observation skills.

It might help you put specific people on hands rather than a one size fits all system

(What amused me to start with was how I got it wrong and got lucky)

[Jon MW]

i do not state what level he is on,...

... i think ... he is still a level 0 thinker.

...

[noble1]

[Jon MW]

Aren"t they just further examples where I"ve admitted I got things wrong?

And that I don"t ever assert that I ...

... think (I) played this hand %100 correctly ...

My other point was that you seem to put a lot of faith in how players generally play, and what hand ranges they are generally on.

Do you really think that the observations of the person who actually played the tournament against those opponents might still have a little bit of extra information available to place people on hands?

[Jon MW]

...
if you are assuming that your opponent has put you on a flush draw WHY does he only min raise
...

.. i will in future try to pass what knowledge and perspective i have to someone who wants to discuss there hands ,, lesson learnt...

And you are good at explaining things.

Like this for example - as I said, this should have been the clue for me to pick up on, but I didn"t.

[noble1]

my stats on full tilt poker

                MTT        MTT SNG     HU            Satellite            Overall

Winnings:    $149,613.06    $0.00    $0.00     $0.00       $149,613.06


Biggest Cash:     $132,787.50           Average Cash:     $14,961.31


Wins:    2     2.70%           Return on Investment: 427%        

Seconds:    1    1.35%         Avg. Finish:    44/100    

Thirds:    0    0.00%         Avg. Expectation:       

Top Three Rate:         4.05%         Avg. Field Size:    1,198    

Final Tables:    4    5.41%         Avg. Buyins Won:       

Cashes:    10    13.51%                   

Total Played:    74         


my cashes are based on big field mtts 600+   official poker rankings has me at 22% combined but my sng single table stats skew the figures........

the reason i put faith into the way i would read someones elses hand history is that generally i"m not far off ,, and as i am working with a friend who is playing a lot of $1 to $2 mtts and i"m going through all there hand histories on my hand replayer just of late, i am quite tuned in to how a lot of these players are playing there hands..
It is amazing how many make similar plays or is it?? because they observe others at this level making plays and getting away with it , unfortunately they start to mimic those plays weather they correct or not and there overall poker game basics are fundamentally flawed....
Solid abc poker with good reading skills are the only skills needed really at the micro levels, if you go beyond this at the lower level buy ins it does not in my opinion help you develop sound fundamentals which you need as a base to go up through the higher levels.. once you have these in mtts [cash is a different beast] i hope to develop my friends poker armory as his game as a whole develops as he does have good poker instincts, they just need reigning in sometimes  lol ........

[Chipaccrual]

my stats on full tilt poker

                MTT        MTT SNG     HU            Satellite            Overall

Winnings:    $149,613.06    $0.00    $0.00     $0.00       $149,613.06


Biggest Cash:     $132,787.50           Average Cash:     $14,961.31


Wins:    2     2.70%           Return on Investment: 427%        

Seconds:    1    1.35%         Avg. Finish:    44/100    

Thirds:    0    0.00%         Avg. Expectation:       

Top Three Rate:         4.05%         Avg. Field Size:    1,198    

Final Tables:    4    5.41%         Avg. Buyins Won:       

Cashes:    10    13.51%                   

Total Played:    74         


my cashes are based on big field mtts 600+   official poker rankings has me at 22% combined but my sng single table stats skew the figures........

the reason i put faith into the way i would read someones elses hand history is that generally i"m not far off ,, and as i am working with a friend who is playing a lot of $1 to $2 mtts and i"m going through all there hand histories on my hand replayer just of late, i am quite tuned in to how a lot of these players are playing there hands..
It is amazing how many make similar plays or is it?? because they observe others at this level making plays and getting away with it , unfortunately they start to mimic those plays weather they correct or not and there overall poker game basics are fundamentally flawed....
Solid abc poker with good reading skills are the only skills needed really at the micro levels, if you go beyond this at the lower level buy ins it does not in my opinion help you develop sound fundamentals which you need as a base to go up through the higher levels.. once you have these in mtts [cash is a different beast] i hope to develop my friends poker armory as his game as a whole develops as he does have good poker instincts, they just need reigning in sometimes  lol ........

Impressive stats and IMO the willingness of players like yourself to post on the forum can only add to the development of APAT players.

Bear in mind though, that in this particular case, and knowing Jon as I do, this post was aimed at giving everyone a laugh at Jon"s shocking play, which he admitted as much in it"s title.

This is not a very good indication of the abilities of Jon"s play.  He is much worse than this.  

Keep up the debate and let"s keep it friendly.

[Jon MW]

... i am quite tuned in to how a lot of these players are playing there hands..
...

Still focussed on the generality rather than the specific, there are many more factors to consider against specific opponents rather than generalising for all players. For example,  this was on the bubble, and he played less than one hand a round - did you consider these with your hand range?

And the reason why I put my faith in my hand reading is because I"m generally not far off (online at least).

How do you think I got the chips to start with?

The Pokerstars $10 Deepstack I"m in at the moment for example, I have 3 times as many hands won without a showdown as those with one. I would put this down to putting players on hands, and risking the smallest amount to convince them they are behind (FYI I haven"t made any bet larger than the pot, in case you thought I might just resort to mindless aggression to knock people off the hand).

...
Solid abc poker with good reading skills are the only skills needed really at the micro levels, ...

I agree, but if you only use your reading skills to establish if you"re ahead (and stay in) or behind (and fold) then you"re missing an opportunity to gain chips when you"re behind against a weaker opponent.

As a reminder, I did finish 4th in this tournament so can I have a little credit for hand reading skills, rather than just on the one hand I posted because I was amused by my mistake?

[noble1]

and he played less than one hand a round - did you consider these with your hand range?

although it is tempting to assume he is tight , you dont give any account of any hands that you have seen him play in a showdown.Just because you have observed someone playing few cards does not automatically make them tight,maybe he his card dead / situation dead etc etc, if that person limps in from the small blind and as you say he is tight what range would you give him ??  suited connecters  , suited ace and small pocket pairs prehaps ?? so is it so far beyond for him to play 4h5h 22 33 Ah3h ThJh 9hTh A2or3 off suit is not out of the running even for someone who is tight with only 1 limper in the pot.

Solid abc poker with good reading skills are the only skills needed really at the micro levels, ...

I agree, but if you only use your reading skills to establish if you"re ahead (and stay in) or behind (and fold) then you"re missing an opportunity to gain chips when you"re behind against a weaker opponent.

again all i said was that you require good reading skills , i did not say anything about using them when you are only ahead..of course you use to them bluff and bet opponents off weak hands,sometimes you use them to bluff opponents off quite strong hands if you take into account your table image , but they have to be good players to achieve this  someone who you know are observing hands played and have knowledge of your betting patterns.Playing mtts you need the ability to play without getting strong hands [any 2 will do in certain situations]
Prime example is the weak tight player to your right who after a raise  continuation bets to much then check folds the turn to any betting on a low board [AK AQ] more than likely is there holding and its easy chips for anyone in position to bet out on the turn and take the pot, what hand you have does not matter, your playing the players tendencies.......

So jonMW what tendencies do you look out for when you are playing honest answer , no googling beforehand , sit down , have a beer , and ask yourself do you really concentrate fully at the table when playing and take in all the betting patterns and tendencies of your opponents...

[Jon MW]

Bored of that hand now, but anyway.

...
and ask yourself do you really concentrate fully at the table when playing and take in all the betting patterns and tendencies of your opponents...

At the moment, no.
At the moment I"m currently fully concentrating on a 2003 South African Merlot.

But normally I take notes ...

...
So jonMW what tendencies do you look out for when you are playing ...

I tend to write notes about how players have played specific hands - and generalise once some particular behaviour recurs often enough with a single player.

Generally I"m looking for:
(i) pre flop raise sizes from whichever position(and obv any tendency to limp)
(ii) flop, turn and river bets with different textured boards
(iii) I particularly like knowing how players handle draws

If I think a player has a particular tendencies - such as if I suspect a player will call any sized bet with a flush draw - I will put the specific hand, and the generalisation with varying number of question marks after depending on how strongly I think the generalisation is correct.

I also make notes if I get any idea about how players might view me - but this is obviously with a number of question marks as without a number of hands observed it might be about how they view me - or it might just be how they would play against anybody (the chat box can come in handy with this though).

[noble1]

wow thats a lot of notes , do you get time to write all this down before the next hand is played ??

when i refer to tendencies i mean more of style of play and bad habits they have.

The type of thing that i note is a lot briefer.
Are they aggressive or passive and are they loose or selective.
What is there level of play [all i do is think 1 level above theres to outplay them]
MOST at lower levels are 1 or 2 thinkers   1 being they only think about there hand and 2 being that they do try to think what you have.
I will try to take advantage of players who play out of position to much [i note there positional play]
I look out for players who play over cards on flops and how they play them [i just note it as over values high cards]
i note how often they continuation bet
i note how strong a hand it takes for them to check raise or reraise pre and post flop
top pair donkeys
flush monkeys
Ace rag masters
i also note how strong of a hand they are willing to call raises with [again ties in with loose or selective and also there position]

so in general in a mtt where i am moving tables , i tend to PROFILE players rather than write down how they exactly played KQ,because next time they have KQ the situation and board,opponents can be entirely different.
When i get a feel for there style i can adjust to them based on my position and when involved in post flop play i can get a feel by there speed of action and betting
and i can deduce based on these factors along with the board how strong they are.

I think taking detailed notes are important in cash games as you can hunt your fish down but in mtts i do think developing your profiling skills is much more important.

try it out, just start out by who you think is bad to your right and left and see if you can isolate them and take there chips..

ALSO any book by John Vorhaus imo is worth a read as he tends to favour books about understanding your opponents and he makes you question your game and how your own mood and state of mind can affect your poker..

[Swinebag]

wow thats a lot of notes , do you get time to write all this down before the next hand is played ??

when i refer to tendencies i mean more of style of play and bad habits they have.

The type of thing that i note is a lot briefer.
Are they aggressive or passive and are they loose or selective.
What is there level of play [all i do is think 1 level above theres to outplay them]
MOST at lower levels are 1 or 2 thinkers   1 being they only think about there hand and 2 being that they do try to think what you have.
I will try to take advantage of players who play out of position to much [i note there positional play]
I look out for players who play over cards on flops and how they play them [i just note it as over values high cards]
i note how often they continuation bet
i note how strong a hand it takes for them to check raise or reraise pre and post flop
top pair donkeys
flush monkeys
Ace rag masters
i also note how strong of a hand they are willing to call raises with [again ties in with loose or selective and also there position]

so in general in a mtt where i am moving tables , i tend to PROFILE players rather than write down how they exactly played KQ,because next time they have KQ the situation and board,opponents can be entirely different.
When i get a feel for there style i can adjust to them based on my position and when involved in post flop play i can get a feel by there speed of action and betting
and i can deduce based on these factors along with the board how strong they are.

I think taking detailed notes are important in cash games as you can hunt your fish down but in mtts i do think developing your profiling skills is much more important.

try it out, just start out by who you think is bad to your right and left and see if you can isolate them and take there chips..

ALSO any book by John Vorhaus imo is worth a read as he tends to favour books about understanding your opponents and he makes you question your game and how your own mood and state of mind can affect your poker..

great post, very useful. Thanks Noble1