Scenario .... advice needed

[TartanDevil]

Hi all

Had a situation during a pub game the other night .. please try and follow me on this one ....

After the flop and turn betting, the river card is revealed, Pot sits at approx 6K.

Player A first to act, bets 2000 and after putting it in the pot, asks player B how much he has.
Player B proceeds to count his chips infront of him and says "2050; so it would only be 50 more".
Player B made no move with his chips into the pot nor declared a call, but Player A quickly puts on 50 chips and turns his cards to reveal an Ace High Flush.

NOW .... if Player B was only thinking about what to do (He has trip 2"s) and did not declare a call but Player A insists his chips were "close enough to the pot for an ALL IN call" (its the hexagon table tops that are used). What should have been done in the scenario ......

I"m asuming what happened was the correct way to play it, but would love for you guys to advise ....

Thanks

Laura
www.timeforpoker.co.uk

[Swinebag]

With no betting line on the Hex/Octagonal tables, it is a grey area, but my take on it is:

Player B has only got his chips in front because he"s counting out chips for player A"s benefit and has at no point indicated a call.

If I was TD, I would give the 2050 back to player A and give the 6K pot to player B seeing as player A exposed his cards before the end of the betting.

You could argue that, in fairness or the correct spirit, that player A could take the pot, but these pub games are a good training ground for the real thing and this would be a good lesson for player A and would probably ensure he never did it again.

[HaworthBantam]

Player B did not call, and therefore keeps his/her 2,050 chips.

What rule do you play if a player reveals their cards before the betting is complete on the river ?

The rule I enforce (and I am generally harsh) is that if a player reveals their cards before betting in the hand is complete, then the hand is dead and he/she forfeits any claim to the pot.

In this particular scenario, it could be claimed that player A is trying a bit of gamesmanship here, and if so, I"d enforce that rule. However, if he"s got a little "excited" and made a genuine mistake, then I"d let it go but player B would not be asked to put his/her chips in.

[lukybugur]

Player B did not call, and therefore keeps his/her 2,050 chips.

What rule do you play if a player reveals their cards before the betting is complete on the river ?

The rule I enforce (and I am generally harsh) is that if a player reveals their cards before betting in the hand is complete, then the hand is dead and he/she forfeits any claim to the pot.

I"m not 100% on the actual Rule here either but in our games, if a player exposes his hand, rather than forfeit it completely (not punishing him for having the best hand), he has to play the rest of the hand with his cards face up. I think this is the fairest way as he is not punished for having a good hand but he obviously continues playing with a disadvantage he"s caused himself.

It happens now and again in our games. With AA Seat 5 had thought that the hand was over after his flop bet and showed his hand. On the KsTs5h flop he was acting so "normal" he didn"t notice that Seat 6 had called putting his chips so close to his that he thought all those in the middle were his. Seat 5 continued with his hand face up. He check > called Seat 6"s bet on the turn. Then, with a 3rd spade on the river, Seat 6 shoved All-In (representing the flush) and it was on Seat 5 to make the call. He still thought he was ahead, did make the call and lost around 40% of his chips and the chip lead in the game - enough of lesson to him in my opinion.

I hope this helps.

[WarBwastardo]

Obviously player A isn"t angle shooting here if he has the nuts, so I think if his mistake should be considered a genuine loss of concentration as he obviously wants a call so.

If Player B hasn"t made a decision, then player A takes back the 50 back as his intended bet was 2,000 and the extra represents a string bet - his 2,000 bet stands and player B has the luxury of making his decision now having seen player A"s cards, so he can now fold his trips and player A scoops the 6k pot.  Had this happened on the flop or turn I think player A"s hand is still live but he now no longer able to initiate the betting.  He can only call or fold.

Whenever I"ve seen this happen that"s the ruling I"ve encountered the most.  Player A may also get a warning and asked to pay a bit more attention.  

[AMRN]

Obviously player A isn"t angle shooting here if he has the nuts, so I think if his mistake should be considered a genuine loss of concentration as he obviously wants a call so.

If Player B hasn"t made a decision, then player A takes back the 50 back as his intended bet was 2,000 and the extra represents a string bet - his 2,000 bet stands and player B has the luxury of making his decision now having seen player A"s cards, so he can now fold his trips and player A scoops the 6k pot.  Had this happened on the flop or turn I think player A"s hand is still live but he now no longer able to initiate the betting.  He can only call or fold.

Whenever I"ve seen this happen that"s the ruling I"ve encountered the most.  Player A may also get a warning and asked to pay a bit more attention. 

Sounds about right to me.

[TopPair2Pair]

Tony G and his Sixes on PP premier league comes to mind.

[Swinebag]

great moment in WSOPE FT. Negreanu and Bengt Sonnert were betting on a
10 JKAx board. sonnert bet, negreanu raised and sonnert, thinking that negreanu had just called tabled his Q for the nuts. negreanu told him he had raised but very sportingly told the dealer to chop it up as he too had a Q. He could have easily claimed that pot.

[Mikeyboy9361]

The following happened to me at my first live tournament, which happened to be an APAT regional in Manchester ( 80 runners ). About mid way thru the tourney I was dealt pocket in early position, and got two callers,  an unhelpful flop with overs, I checked and was surprised to get a free river, it came an 8 , happy days. I raised and the first guy to act went into the tank for ages before folding, in my excitement I had forgotten about the guy left to act and mucked my hand in error , thinking the pot was mine. The TD declared my hand dead, the guy left to act had trip sixes, they also turned the river card an 8! As a novice, I had to take the ruling, but now I feel as my cards were easily identifiable I should have been able to claim them back, as a genuine error had been made. What are your thoughts?

[HaworthBantam]

Once the cards are mucked, they"re dead. Sorry but, imho, The TD made the right decision, regardless of whether the cards were easily identifiable.

It"s these harsh lessons that we learn from  

[AMRN]

I too have learnt that lesson from painful experience...... now I never let my cards cross the line until after the chips are pushed my way.

[Chipaccrual]

Once the cards are mucked, they"re dead. Sorry but, imho, The TD made the right decision, regardless of whether the cards were easily identifiable.

It"s these harsh lessons that we learn from  

You"re a harsh man, but rules are rules.

Note to Des :- Don"t let Ian TD an APAT event, will only end in tears and tantrums.  

[AMRN]

Once the cards are mucked, they"re dead. Sorry but, imho, The TD made the right decision, regardless of whether the cards were easily identifiable.

It"s these harsh lessons that we learn from  

You"re a harsh man, but rules are rules.

Note to Des :- Don"t let Ian play an APAT event, will only end in tears and tantrums.  

FYP  

[HaworthBantam]

Once the cards are mucked, they"re dead. Sorry but, imho, The TD made the right decision, regardless of whether the cards were easily identifiable.

It"s these harsh lessons that we learn from  

You"re a harsh man, but rules are rules.

Note to Des :- Don"t let Ian TD an APAT event, will only end in tears and tantrums.  

I have to admit, I am harsh, but fair. I"ve found that folk tend to learn lessons quicker if you stick by the rules. Start deviating and you open yourself up to all sorts of hassle. TDing our works annual multi table regional tournament on the 24th - I love the power  

[HaworthBantam]

Once the cards are mucked, they"re dead. Sorry but, imho, The TD made the right decision, regardless of whether the cards were easily identifiable.

It"s these harsh lessons that we learn from  

You"re a harsh man, but rules are rules.

Note to Des :- Don"t let Ian play an APAT event, will only end in tears and tantrums.  

FYP  

Tsk