opinions needed!

[bigredders]

this one gave me a sleepless night last night so here goes

final table at local casino blinds 4-8k i have a comfortable 94k

dealt in small blind cutt off limps, i limp, big blind checks. the cutt off and the big blind are the 2 chip leaders

flop comes   ::  

i lead out for 15k, big blind calls, cutt off folds

turn comes  , completing the rainbow

i lead out for 25k, after a little deliberation big blind pushes all-in

so therefore i have to call 50k to win the 149k pot

after a lot of thinking i decide to call and of course he had the 9

my thinking behind all this that first of all i didnt want to raise pre-flop against the 2 chip leaders out of position. i didnt want to go all-in because i had seen the cutt off make some crazy all in calls so calling the 4k to win 24k seemed the best option.

the flop seems a very good flop for me. i have to admit he played it well by just calling, i put him on 2 overs. when the turn comes a 5 i know that it cant have improved his hand, so thats what made the all-in so confusing.

also, i had already laid a big hand down on the table and he had already shown a big bluff to the chip leader at the time.

opinions please?

[Mikeyboy9361]

I think the make up of the small blind was fine you"re out of position, but you want to see a cheap flop. When you don"t hit your set you can"t love your hand, there may be a thought just check and try and see a free card, but your small bet was okay to see where you are. After he calls you have got to think you are in trouble, and for me the hand was over there and then. He pushed all in to prorect his hand against a possible flush, and that tells me he has a hand. By now you are pretty pot committed so a call on the end is not that bad, but as I said I would have shut down sooner.

[AMRN]

you say that you have a comfortable stack, but at the end of the day it"s less than 12 big blinds. However, it"s big enough to make a dent in the chip leader.....

.....so, once the guy has limped from the cut off, there must be 20k in the middle (his 8, your 4, and the BB"s . This represents more than 20% of your total stack...... only one move here..... ALLL INNNNNN preflop.

If the cut off has limped with a pair and calls your all in, c"est la vie...... if he calls with overs, well at least you"re on the right side of the coin flip...... and if he folds, happy days.

[Roscopiko]

Dont mind the limp with 44 to see a cheap flop at all, pushing here is too risky and unneccessary imo with just 44, everytime you get called you are at best racing 2 overs and otherwise dominated.

When the flop comes 993, I agree this is a good flop for your hand but you now have to decide what your line is for the hand.  If you are no longer set mining (as you predetermined really with the limp) you know have to determine if you hand is best or not vs 2 limper and the only hands you are really worried about from this flop are those that have a 9.

So now I think your flop bet sizing is the key to the rest of the hand and without all the information you had at the table its almost impossible to advise.  What did you want to acheive with your bet here and if someone calls (based on previous history) what does this tell you.

[Jon MW]

I think either all in preflop and try to win the blinds or double up against 2 overs.

Or limp preflop and give it up when you don"t hit the set.

Any other way of playing baby pairs out of position is often going to end badly for  you.

[Swinebag]

All in pre flop is my prefered move, as I doubt the C/O has a hand to call that raise and the blinds are big in relation to stack sizes to warrant the move.

Limping isn"t too bad, you could hit a set and you could have the best hand post flop anway. 993 is a great flop for you and you have to bet it. I like 15K into 24K pot. Once you are called there, it is time to give up though as any more betting leaves you pot committed and getting called/raised by better hands.

Ul though, tough spot

[bigredders]

thanks for all the replies so far. as i said before i didnt want to go all-in as i had seen the cutt-off make some crazy all-in calls. i know you have to win races to win touri"s but my personal play and opinion is to try and avoid all luck situations whenever i can....now some might not agree with that but it has always worked for me...except in this case.

you are correct though jon about baby pairs, i hate playing them all pairs up to seem to get me in no end of trouble time and time again.

mikey there was no flush there it was a complete rainbow, otherwise i might have come to that conclusion myself.

as i said guys thanks for your opinions...its helping things become a little clearer!

[Mikeyboy9361]

Okay sorry, but your pics show a spade on the flop and a spade on the turn?

[bigredders]

must have clicked the wrong card! sorry im a dummy!

[noble1]

[bigredders]

All in pre-flop? due to stack size is best,folding is way to nitty,calling okay as long as you have the discipline to lay a hand down  .........if your read of the cut off is correct , why pump 15k into pot on the flop then dis-believe a caller and pump more money in on the turn , oh the joy of position    respect it and play it more yourself.Small pocket pairs are great , why hate them? out of position they are easy to get away from if you dont hit , in position you can have any old crap if your reads are correct.Bet sizing is also something you should look at within your game 1/3 prod bet for instance would of given you the info that the big blind had a hand of sorts then on the turn you shut down.That leaves you 8 to 9 bb to shove in to try and steal or double up with.You admit that you find small pocket pairs difficult , this is a perfect example of your leak with them , plug it up sir and learn to throw them away if you dont connect,have good reads,position,plenty of chips etc etc oops i"m repeating myself about discipline and position again  
Also this liking of avoiding luck situations will hold your game back imo when short stacked,are you waiting for aces or kings? then its time to look at your short stack game bigredders , it might be time to revamp that part of your game..play some sng"s and improve it there , they are great for learning equity and hand ranges to have when you are short stacked....also have a tinker with pokerstove and you"ll find most hands , a good 95% need luck postflop to hold up....................

when i said i try to avoid luck situations, i just meant in that situation. i have no problem pushing when short-stacked, that isn"t the issue. imo, making a 90k all-in raise into a 20k pot is my idea of relying on luck. my read of the cutt off was a pre-flop read, i knew he would put the hand down if he hadn"t connected, which he was very unlikely to have in this scenario.
i have to agree with the bet sizing, i got myself into a situation where i pretty much had to call the all-in, and maybe i should have just shut up shop when the turn came. the problem was that i knew that floating was defianetly within his range, as i had seen it only a few hands previous when he bluffed the chip leader.

all in all i think i just need to learn to chuck them away when i havent connected out of position... even when i think i might be ahead!

[monkeyman]

I think either all in preflop and try to win the blinds or double up against 2 overs.

Or limp preflop and give it up when you don"t hit the set.

Any other way of playing baby pairs out of position is often going to end badly for  you.

I think the cowboy has got it spot on.  94k with blinds at 4k/8k isn"t comfortable, its shoving time, so that"s what I"d have done in this situation. If one of your opponents calls and has overcards, you"re getting your chips in as favourite. If they have a bigger pair, then you are just unlucky and its not your day.
  This is actually a very difficult hand to play post flop, as with no preflop raising, you have no indication of where you stand in relation to your opponents. I think that shoving preflop is your best bet and that calling preflop then shutting down if you don"t hit a set is your only other option.