what do you do here and why?

[Swinebag]

£10 freezeout, 27 runners, 14 players left, top 4 paid, starting stack 10K, average chips 19K, blinds 400/800

Folds round to button (10K) who limps

I have 9K and see  ah :: on the SB so make up to 800, BB (8K) checks

flop:   ac kc

I lead out for 1600, BB folds, button goes all in so its 7K to call (all my chips).

I know my oponent well. My read is that he does limp a lot of pots but will raise up on the button with 77+, A x, (and maybe broadway) He knows I bet most flops if I sense weakness. He also knows that I back down to aggression (especially for all my chips) when I have marginal holdings (e.g. top pair no kicker)

You can probably guess what i did now, but anyway three questions

1. What range do you put the button on after his shove (given his pre flop limp)
2. should I have even made up in the SB
3. Should i call his shove for my tourney.

[AMRN]

1. Either a weak ace (but better than yours), or Kx

2. No. you were putting in chips weakly without gaining any info. Personally, I would have pounced on his weak limp and put in a healthy raise.... and recognising that you are out of position after the flop, I would probably have shoved from the SB preflop to avoid having to make a difficult decision later in the hand. He"s going to need a big hand to call for all his chips there, but his limp suggests he doesn"t have a big hand..............

3. Difficult one - toss a coin, turn round three times on your seat, touch your toes, close your eyes, then call if your timer hasn"t run out

[LongshanksED]

£10 freezeout, 27 runners, 14 players left, top 4 paid, starting stack 10K, average chips 19K, blinds 400/800

Folds round to button (10K) who limps

I have 9K and see  ah :: on the SB so make up to 800, BB (8K) checks

flop:   ac kc

I lead out for 1600, BB folds, button goes all in so its 7K to call (all my chips).

I know my oponent well. My read is that he does limp a lot of pots but will raise up on the button with 99+, AT+, (and maybe KQ) He knows I bet most flops if I sense weakness. He also knows that I back down to aggression (especially for all my chips) when I have marginal holdings (e.g. top pair no kicker)

You can probably guess what i did now, but anyway three questions

1. What range do you put the button on after his shove (given his pre flop limp)
2. should I have even made up in the SB
3. Should i call his shove for my tourney.

1. i would put him on ace something and probably better than your 3

2. your M is less than 10 so i shove pre flop maybe be a good idea but your not in serious trouble yet so the call aint bad hoping to hit big on the flop

3. no. dont shove in. your pair could be good but i cant see it with theweak ki. plus you still got a bit of time and your on the button next so maybe you got a chance to steal a few blinds once the button is on you

[monkeyman]

I think there"s a number of equally valid ways you could go with this one. Firstly, the one action I would never have taken would to have been to have made up from the small blind. By doing this, you are exposing yourself to trouble ahead, as you"re playing before two opponents with no idea of  how you stand in the hand. Folding is a perfectly sensible option (that"s how I"d have gone), raising also has a little merit and given the stack sizes, I may even have shoved here.    
    Having passed that stage and given that you"ve hit an ace on the flop, betting out is the sensible option. With the board as it is, there"s a huge number of hands you could be in very bad shape against, but you are at least giving your opponents a decision to make. If as happened here, your opponent comes over the top, folding is the move I"d go for as you could be putting your tournament life on the line against a bigger ace or flush draw which has two chances to hit.
  As for what your opponent had, I"d put him on a wide range, all of which could spell trouble. He may well have had a stronger ace, but if I take your read on him as accurate, then he would probably have raised preflop. The two holdings I feel are most likely are two connected clubs, possibly queen/jack, or what I think is most likely is a pair of fives which, of course has hit trips on the flop.  
  To summarise, the potential ways you could have played this hand, in my order of preference are as follows:

1) Fold preflop
2) Shove preflop
3) Call from the small blind, lead out after the flop, fold if your opponent comes over the top
4)  Call from the small blind, lead out after the flop, call if your opponent comes over the top
5) Call from the big blind, check after the flop, fold to any action  

[bigredders]

£10 freezeout, 27 runners, 14 players left, top 4 paid, starting stack 10K, average chips 19K, blinds 400/800

Folds round to button (10K) who limps

I have 9K and see  ah :: on the SB so make up to 800, BB (8K) checks

flop:   ac kc

I lead out for 1600, BB folds, button goes all in so its 7K to call (all my chips).

I know my oponent well. My read is that he does limp a lot of pots but will raise up on the button with 77+, A x, (and maybe broadway) He knows I bet most flops if I sense weakness. He also knows that I back down to aggression (especially for all my chips) when I have marginal holdings (e.g. top pair no kicker)

You can probably guess what i did now, but anyway three questions

1. What range do you put the button on after his shove (given his pre flop limp)
2. should I have even made up in the SB
3. Should i call his shove for my tourney.

1. my personal opinion that he has a flush draw, think he would raise with an ace on the button(i bet he hit it as well)

2.debatable...i understand through the fact you had the odds to, but you just dont know where you are when it does hit your ace. so therefore your best case scenario(hitting your ace) is also your worst case scenario. especially when out of position.

3. i personally would make the hero call here, judging on your info. it is borderline though because even if you put him on the flush he has plenty of outs to hit and thats your best case scenario as i wouldn"t have thought he would do that with fresh air

[Swinebag]

i should put that i editted my original post.

Before i played this hand i put him raising on the button 77+ Ax and broadway (editted version)

After this hand i adjusted it to what was in my original post (99+ AT+ and maybe KQ)

[Mikeyboy9361]

1. Difficult to know what to put him on, we haven"t been playing with him, but a good ace or pair you would have thought he would have raised, so I will go with the consensus that he has a weak ace or maybe face cards, may be even suited connectors.

2. No, you shouldn"t, what were you hoping to hit? A 3? 33?. But the ace came and you followed through which was what you had to do.

3. I wouldn"t call this bet, you still have enough behind to rebuild, and you have got the button coming your way, so I would let him have it and wait for a better spot.

[noble1]

[noble1]

omg make your mind up    

After this hand i adjusted it to what was in my original post (99+ AT+ and maybe KQ)

his possible holdings - bluff or A2 , A4 - A9 , 55 , suited connecters
errr big range is it not !!! close one now , so its a fold..You have 7000 back which is still ideal for stealing with and if you double up it does give you a little bit more breathing space.

quote - 2. should I have even made up in the SB

NO - shove or fold  [my preference is shove , fold ok]

[kinboshi]

I don"t mind shoving here, but I hate calling.

Hi shove screams a weak ace or a flush draw.  You"re not beating a weak ace and are at best looking to chop it, and against a flush draw you"re a small favourite.

However, if you"re looking to fold here to a re-raise then your bet was simply a steal rather than a bet for value.  No hand that you beat is going to call here (are they?).

[Swinebag]

Thanks for all the comments here

firstly, I now realise my make up in the SB was very weak, and it would have been no surprise to the table if I had shoved in that spot and would have probably won the hand there and then. I had already shoved my stack twice in that orbit to get me up to the 9.4K mark so was wary of doing it a third time with such a weak hand. If I was wary then folding would have been better than making up. I just thought that 5 to 1 odds were too tempting too pass up if an ace came on the flop.

An ace did come on the flop and I genuinely thought I was ahead when I value bet it. When I got reraised all in, I was truly baffled and took a very long time before deciding to......CALL! My reasoning was that my oponent could be shoving with KJ, KT, K9, and 2 connected clubs. I also thought there was a possibility he had a better Ace than me, but would have thought he would have raised pre flop with an Ace. If he had an ace I was calling for a split pot which would have been a bad move (even worse if he had A5). 55 was also a possibility which would have crushed me.

But I also couldn"t help thinking that he had me on a weak ace or weak king and that I would fold to his reraise (which I would have done most of the time). So I went with my read on the player and the situation and made the call.

Having read all your comments, I realise this was a poor move on my part. As a lot of you said that I would still have 7K behind and the button to follow. This should have been the over riding factor. In the end, I put my tourney on the line with a very marginal holding based on a read that could have still had me crushed!! Maybe a good call in a cash game, but definitely a poor call in a tourney.

Even though it is not relevant, I"ll tell you how it panned out.....

I called

board was ac kc

I had ah ::

he had  ad

I was crushed

but.....

turn ::

river ::    

giving me the sickest beat I have ever inflicted and the pot. (proving that live poker is soooooooooo rigged!!)

Motivated, not to make any more mistakes, I took advantage of this huge bit of luck and took the tourney down!!

In hindsight, I thought my oponents limp on the button with A5o was very weak too and that caused the confusion with button raising ranges I put in this thread.

[noble1]

[AMRN]

Wooohooooooooooooooo Everton now 3-1 up   SAhaaaaaaaaaaaa  lol

Noble1 - generally you talk a lot of sense on here, and I like to take time to read your posts....... but that last comment did make me laugh.  Just goes to show, even people who talk sense can say stupid stuff sometimes!!

Bet you"re loving looking up and seeing RED all over the top of the league!!!!

 

[bigredders]

wow back to the drawing board for me then, my reads are useless!