For Your Amusement

[Jon MW]

wow thats a lot of notes , do you get time to write all this down before the next hand is played ??
...

Touch typing helps but mainly I"m making notes on hands that go to showdown as I think that offers more of a useful insight (players overbetting in general is a notable exception to this) and there are hands which I just don"t think seem interesting.

It does mean I tend to have to open the edit screen to read notes rather than the tool tips but this isn"t really a problem.

It is an idea to make the generalisation and include a reference to how much information it"s based on (it would save on typing), I might try flipping it round and seeing if this helps as much.

I like some of your points, particularly the positional observations.

Good post.

[noble1]

ok here is a tricky ish situation with a medium pair.  In a low stakes sng.

you are in the small blind with 99 you have a stack of 1332 and the blinds are 15/30 there is just 1 limper from the cut off position - although early in the sng he has shown he is loose,passive pre but agg post flop, limps pictures and calls raises with them.He has a stack of 955 left.The big blind yet to act is a bad tag player with a stack of 4188 who plays strong draws very agg with no thought to his opponents possible holdings.

So how would you proceed out of position with 99 ??

[TopPair2Pair]

Yes, you"re right - all this time I"ve been playing slightly too cautiously as I"ve been using the fraction [call]/[existing pot] - rather than the ratio [existing pot]:[Call]

The name pot odds should really have given me the clue

This is good because it means I"ll be able to loosen my game up a bit

My favourite statement within this thread!!!  



Good on the pair of ya for keeping the discussion going in a contructrive manner whilst at the same time sticking to your cannon balls. (Although there was a lot of heated flirting going on!!)

This is why I like this forum soo much had this discussion been anywhere else we all know how it would"ve turned out. Long live APAT.

[Jon MW]

ok here is a tricky ish situation with a medium pair.  In a low stakes sng.

you are in the small blind with 99 you have a stack of 1332 and the blinds are 15/30 there is just 1 limper from the cut off position - although early in the sng he has shown he is loose,passive pre but agg post flop, limps pictures and calls raises with them.He has a stack of 955 left.The big blind yet to act is a bad tag player with a stack of 4188 who plays strong draws very agg with no thought to his opponents possible holdings.

So how would you proceed out of position with 99 ??

At this stage I wouldn"t want to risk an unnecessarily large amount of chips.

If you raise and you get called by either player still in then you will almost certainly face a flop where you won"t know whether you"re ahead against players who will almost certainly be betting into it. The chances are that you won"t win this hand by flopping big and you won"t win it by bluffing them off their hands.

So I"d limp.

If the flop contains overcards then I"d be ready to checkfold.

If the flop contains all undercards, I"d bet out - but I"d still be ready to fold if either of these two players made oversized reraises. I"d be likely to be ahead, and they shouldn"t be betting so big - but early on I"m happy to fold a winning hand rather than risk losing most of my chips because they got lucky.

If you catch the set, I"d hope that the board gives something for the other two to bet into. If only one of them is interested (e.g. if there are no obvious straight or flush draws) I"d try to check call on every street - possibly I"d have to start betting on the turn and the river if I thought my opponent was going to get suspicious of a check call. If there is a draw on there I"d hope to check raise (possibly all in if they bet enough to warrant it) - with the extra redraws available to me for making a full house then I"d be willing to risk losing the lot against them getting lucky.

Summary: I"d set mine and be ready to fold light because I don"t want to risk losing a big pot at this stage unless I"ve got at least a set.

[noble1]

thx for reply jon,
please check your history files, look for  Tournament #113577134 , and we"ll go over your reasoning in that 1........

[Jon MW]

thx for reply jon,
please check your history files, look for  Tournament #113577134 , and we"ll go over your reasoning in that 1........

Did I do something really stupid?

I"ll have a look when I get home

[noble1]

its a very similar situation, was it stupid?? NO it was not , but imo it is something you can learn from, post it up and we can discuss various ways in how it could of been played out and what your thoughts were at time.....I have seen worse and done it myself in the past to....

[Mikeyboy9361]

Bloody hell! Get a room you two!

[Jon MW]

This one?

Level II (15/30)
Seat #9 is the button

Seat 1: Jon MW (1347 in chips)
Seat 2: jadedpoonjab (4218 in chips)
Seat 3: Wanderer34 (1595 in chips)
Seat 4: aahigh800 (1425 in chips)
Seat 5: rickypapro (1695 in chips)
Seat 6: xchelle-m-x (1335 in chips)
Seat 7: twoscrew (1370 in chips)
Seat 8: D@n1el81 (985 in chips)
Seat 9: Govwat (1030 in chips)      - The Button

Jon MW: posts small blind 15
jadedpoonjab: posts big blind 30

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Jon MW [ ]
[players fold]
D@n1el81: calls 30
[fold]
Jon MW: raises 120 to 15
[fold]
D@n1el81: calls 120

*** FLOP *** [ ]

Jon MW: bets 330
D@n1el81: raises 505 to 835 and is all-in
Jon MW: calls 505

*** TURN *** & *** RIVER ***
[ ] []

*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jon MW: shows [ ] (a pair of Nines)
D@n1el81: shows [ ] (a pair of Jacks)

D@n1el81 collected 2000 from pot

2 factors affected this, 1 general and 1 specific.

Generally I had the impression that D@n1el81 saw a lot of flops but folded easily afterwards. Reviewing the hand history shows that this is vaguely right but he never raised without a hand.

Specifically he had recently lost a big pot, and one of the players on the table was quite annoying so I thought with a bit of pressure on him he might tilt call with something like AK or AQ.

Also I thought that if I lost I"d still have enough time and enough chips to make it back.

[APAT]

This has to be a potential post of the year nominee...

[noble1]

[Jon MW]

... a lead on the flop of 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot should get the necessary info but you need the discipline to fold/give up and try to check it down if called imo. Result you still have around 1100 chips,more than enough ...

I mentioned that I missed the fact that this opponent only reraised when he had a hand - the implication was that I should have realised he had a jack from that shove.

This also highlights the problem that mainly taking notes on how players have played hands which have gone to showdown brings - namely, that I had to rely ony my impression of his play because his hands didn"t usually go to showdown.

...
i cant say i"m in love with your 5x raise jon out of position to a doof who will most likely call you, i think a 3x raise would be much better.Pot size control being my main concern[only got 75bb at start of sng,99 not being a hand you want to create a large pot with],situation,hand strength and the position you have and also along with it only being at the 15/30 level.
...

3xbb pf is my standard raise, but my idea that this player might be on the verge of tilt is why I made it slightly larger. It was ultimately a misjudgment about how likely this player would be to call and bet just after losing his big pot shortly before.

...
So jon theres some of my thoughts , hope they help you. Also if you could think up a good strategy to play the double or nothing sng and had the discipline to follow it what would you do different jon to make a profit long term?
...

The problem with the double or nothing SNG is precisely the fact that the strategy hasn"t been formulated yet. In the 45 $10 ones I played before I got a bit bored I saw the general table dynamic veer between tight, loose and trappy as being the way that players seemed to prefer as a strategy.

They were a good way of making money, but they weren"t as profitable as I"d hoped and the depth of boredom they plunged me to just wasn"t worth it. I might go back to them in a while once other people have worked out the way to make them easier to win.

[noble1]

i understand you thinking that 5x is a good idea but you are still creating a large pot out of position,you need to think ahead sometimes,take in account stack sizes,position after flop,what plan you have if your bet on the flop is called etc etc again if you were to 3x raise you have some control of the pot size and you dont need to lead out quite as much on a 1 overcard flop to get the info as to where you stand. The opponent had previously took a pot down with KJ with trip kings,he played that hand poorly.Just put yourself into his shoes , he has called a 5x raise and he has just reraised all in to your pot bet on the flop,what could he possibly have that your 99 is beating in which he his willing to go all in with.At best you hope a flush draw 78h you are 55-45 the same against a suited ace , KTh you are a slight dog 48-52 , then you have any jack , 66 , 88.. is it worth fighting for? just be patient you have plenty of chips left...Watch the annette_15 link i put in the advice for new players post,its a $4 mtt with plenty of lucy gucys watch how she uses position,aggression and the discipline to know when to fold.Also note her bet sizes on the flops.

[noble1]

i dont know if you have read this post jon but bt"s thoughts on medium strength hands against passive opponents like the ones you encounter a lot in the $50 and below sngs makes good reading.
His thoughts are well written as well as giving you an insight into his thinking process of players.

http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=1162.0

this post will help anyone think about there game.