playing a set out of position.

[kinboshi]

I"m going to post a hand where I had a set OOP from the £300 @ DTD.  It"s an interesting hand for a number of reasons and generated a fair amount of discussion.  I need to remember the details first, but will post it on here rather than starting a new thread.

[kinboshi]

Tournament: Live £300 MTT @ DTD.  151 runners.  45-minute clock, 10,000 starting stack.

Level: Third level, blinds 75/150

The tournament"s been running for about 2 hours, and my image is fairly tight.  I know a few players at the table, and the table"s fairly chatty - and there"s much mirth about me being tighter than Des's wallet at the bar.  This have given me the opportunity to play a few hands "differently", especially at the early levels with the blinds as small as they are.

For the purpose of this hand everyone has around the 10K starting stack, except for the player to the right of me who has won a large pot from the player to my left leaving them with 13K and 7K respectively.  I have about 12K and am UTG.

I look down at the monster that is  :: ::.  I throw in a raise, and make it 500 to go.  Again, some comments around the table that I must have soooted aces to be playing from UTG.

UTG+1 is an older fella, a regular at DTD who I have played with a fair bit.  I"d describe him as loose and not very good.  I love to have him on my cash game table, as he loves to gamble and will commit without a great deal.  He plays tournaments the same way. 

He calls (and I"m not surprised).

It"s folded all the way round the table to the BB.  He"s a young internet player.  He wins a lot online, I know this because he"s told me so, repeatedly. 

He calls.

Flop comes down:

kh ::

The BB checks.

I"ve flopped my set, and I"m happy to see the king there as well, hoping that someone is playing AK or KQ or similar.  Two clubs on the board, and vague straight draws, but pretty much an ideal flop for me.

I bet 1,200.

UTG+1 raises to 3,000. 
BB calls.

What do I do now?

I put one of them on the flush draw and the other on at least a pair.  The older gent now has about 3.5K back, and looks likes he"s happy to commit with his hand.  The BB knows this and flat calls.

What should I be thinking now, and how would you play it (or how would you have played it differently up to now)?

[Swinebag]

This is played at a buyin, well above my level so am pretty inexperienced here, but I"ll have a go.

This is a tough spot and you must be thinking set over set.

Because of your tight image, people may be thinking that you can be taken off pots, even though you"ve raised UTG and led out. But the real problem is you are OOP and dont have a clue what you are up against, but the sequence of betting probably means you are up against a monster or a pair of monsters.

monsters you are beating

1. AA -  It is possible that UTG + 1 may play this slowly thinking that you have a good hand as well and may keep betting into him. Its an unlikely holding for the BB though because he would surely raise preflop.

2. AKo - This is a more likely holding for the BB rather than UTG + 1 but he would probably 3 bet here pre flop (would he?)

3. 2 pair - would UTG + 1 call with K9??, BB may be the type to feel priced in and could possibly call with any of the 2 pair options, but overall 2 pair has to be furthest from your thoughts here

4. The FD - not really a monster (unless its  ac kc), but as you say a strong possibility. I"d have expected a shove from UTG + 1 if he had this, though he could be thinking he is betting for value if he had the  ac kc option.

monsters you are losing too

KK or 99 - KK is a possible holding for UTG + 1 but probably not the BB, whilst 99 is a strong possibility for either player, given the betting and stacks.

I actually wrote this next bit first before I wrote the stuff above it......

I"d probably shove em in here (not saying that is correct by a long way - its just what I"d do if I had this action

but having had this action and really thought about it, I"m tending to a fold for the simple reason that you have only committed 1700 and still have your starting stack to play with.
Coupled with the fact that you are probably up against at least 1, if not 2 monsters, the most likely being (given the betting) that you are crushed by a bigger set or a pot committed FD that could crush you.

Having said all that, and the fact that i"ve been thinking about this for 30 minutes, I"d still shove em in dreaming of a treble up and at least being able to say I was unlucky if i get set over set.

[Eck]

More interested in what your plan was when you get the inevitable 2/3 callers and the flop comes with no 3 to be honest.


As played i ship the lot in right now if someone has   ,  ks kc well ggnh etc but if i"m playing threes utg then no way im doing anything else here. Please don"t tell me you did anything else with c9k in the pot and 9k behind get it in and run good imo.  

[Laxie]

I"m throwing the lot in on the flop too.  I"d be surprised if either of them has a bigger set, but if they do...fair play, good game.

[LongshanksED]

i dont like small pocket pairs in early position and generally limp 50% off the time at a full table if i have a decent read on the other players, if i have a raise and a call or 2 i"ll then usually fold them pre flop

as you played it i"d have bet the same post flop and then shoved when its came back around to me but would be worried about the 99 - not so much of the KK as i"d imagine that would"ve ben re raised

[kinboshi]

[TopPair2Pair]

comments around the table that I must have soooted aces to be playing from UTG.

hahaha!!!!

This is played at a buyin, well above my level so am pretty inexperienced here, but I"ll have a go.

snap, half the buyin and then snap again!

Anyway, everything seems fine to me right up until the BB call, the 33 raise given your image is great in imo, with that image I am happy with the pfr and the lead bet.

The BB call is where i would be concerned. I fear not the ol boy. We want the ol boys raise here and then a squeezey reraise from the internet player. Then i think we have an easier decision to make.

The call is either a lovely bluff call of strength or genuinely BB thinks he has us beat at this stage. Given that his an internet player and can probably scare a few ppl off with the call, i flat call and scare him back showing my armpits! Then look for a better reason to commit or get away dependant on the turn

[kinboshi]

This is played at a buyin, well above my level so am pretty inexperienced here, but I"ll have a go.

You"re more than good enough to play in this.  The skill level (on the few tables I played on, and from what I"ve seen doing updates on these in the past) on the whole isn"t higher than the APAT events.  There are some better players for sure, but there are a lot of poor players too.

This is a tough spot and you must be thinking set over set.

Wasn"t worried about a set to he honest.  KK re-raises me pre, and if he"s got 99, then so be it.  I thought I was definitely ahead on the flop.

Because of your tight image, people may be thinking that you can be taken off pots, even though you"ve raised UTG and led out. But the real problem is you are OOP and dont have a clue what you are up against, but the sequence of betting probably means you are up against a monster or a pair of monsters.

monsters you are beating

1. AA -  It is possible that UTG + 1 may play this slowly thinking that you have a good hand as well and may keep betting into him. Its an unlikely holding for the BB though because he would surely raise preflop.

2. AKo - This is a more likely holding for the BB rather than UTG + 1 but he would probably 3 bet here pre flop (would he?)

3. 2 pair - would UTG + 1 call with K9??, BB may be the type to feel priced in and could possibly call with any of the 2 pair options, but overall 2 pair has to be furthest from your thoughts here

I thought that one of them could definitely have two pair here.  Which would be K9 as any other holding is unlikely. 

4. The FD - not really a monster (unless its  ac kc), but as you say a strong possibility. I"d have expected a shove from UTG + 1 if he had this, though he could be thinking he is betting for value if he had the  ac kc option.

monsters you are losing too

KK or 99 - KK is a possible holding for UTG + 1 but probably not the BB, whilst 99 is a strong possibility for either player, given the betting and stacks.

I actually wrote this next bit first before I wrote the stuff above it......

I"d probably shove em in here (not saying that is correct by a long way - its just what I"d do if I had this action

but having had this action and really thought about it, I"m tending to a fold for the simple reason that you have only committed 1700 and still have your starting stack to play with.
Coupled with the fact that you are probably up against at least 1, if not 2 monsters, the most likely being (given the betting) that you are crushed by a bigger set or a pot committed FD that could crush you.

Having said all that, and the fact that i"ve been thinking about this for 30 minutes, I"d still shove em in dreaming of a treble up and at least being able to say I was unlucky if i get set over set.

[kinboshi]

comments around the table that I must have soooted aces to be playing from UTG.

hahaha!!!!

This is played at a buyin, well above my level so am pretty inexperienced here, but I"ll have a go.

snap, half the buyin and then snap again!

Anyway, everything seems fine to me right up until the BB call, the 33 raise given your image is great in imo, with that image I am happy with the pfr and the lead bet.

The BB call is where i would be concerned. I fear not the ol boy. We want the ol boys raise here and then a squeezey reraise from the internet player. Then i think we have an easier decision to make.

The call is either a lovely bluff call of strength or genuinely BB thinks he has us beat at this stage. Given that his an internet player and can probably scare a few ppl off with the call, i flat call and scare him back showing my armpits! Then look for a better reason to commit or get away dependant on the turn

Very, very close to my thinking in this hand.  In fact, are we related?

[TopPair2Pair]

nearly but not quite! I"m related to the geeky internet player, lol!

[LongshanksED]

waiting with baited breath

did you win or did the old boy suck out with a flush draw?

[kinboshi]

Hehe.  Going to wait for a few more opinions before I reveal what I was thinking, and how the hand played out.

[noble1]

nice post Kinboshi

ok as played and with your reads

loose guy - could of rr a flush draw AXc KXc ,top pair KQo KJo KTo and seems he is loose i"d add K9 in there 99 is a possibility but i"d expect a bigger raise to deter flush draws and isolate you [KK could be in range but doubtful]

Big blind - if he is good? then check smooth calling 99 after you have lead out and seen a rr is spewy so i"d discount that from his range and KK,if he is any good he wouldnt just call a flush draw oop AXc odds are only 1.85 so AKc KQc KJc is the type of hand i"d expect to see here,and he smoothed to see how you react due to your lead

you have 10,300 @ 75/150 so you have fold equity but due to the action and reads we have 2 choices.
1 call
2 raise

utg+1 has 3500 left behind and has basically committed himself having put in 1/2 his stack
BB internet whizz kid has 7000 behind

if we call and a club comes we will have 7300 chips left and plenty of play left,if no club comes i dare say utg+1 will shove in rest of his stack anyhows but will we extract any more chips from BB ?
if we re-raise we will definitely have utg+1 coming in and i"d say about 35% chance that the BB will. 

with it being so early and deep i"m torn between the safe option and re-raising.

re-raising here with 2 intrested parties @ this level to me is just a little bit to early to gamble with a %50 edge on 2 villians.
So if i was you Kinboshi i"d call and re-evaluate on the turn to see the BB action,if there is a club and he leads out it is a easy fold,likewise if no club and he leads out then i"d have to put 99 in his range now and i"d make a reluctant fold.If he checks the turn if a club comes or not i would lead to isolate utg+1 and expect BB to fold if we ship in our stack and if utg+1 does have the flush we have the odds to pair the board for a boat.

intresting situation , i luv it  

[kinboshi]

Ok - I"m actually off out now (down to London Village to see New Model Army at The Astoria ), but will be back on tomorrow to carry on the discussion from my point of view. 

Some great responses though.