betting patterns

[Swinebag]

some players love this move with AA or KK

but a lot of donks will do this with low PPs 22-88.

I will call this with TT+ but will pass AK (if its early levels)

If the player is scoping well then I"ll pass everything bar KK and AA (but good scopers dont tend to do this)

[LongshanksED]

yeah i notice the limper is usually holding 22 - 99 and the original raiser is holding AK, AQ, AJ

but the limpers plays dont really make alot of sense especially in early stages

the obvious tactic is to get in cheap and set mine but when raised i dont see how going all in is gonna chase the raiser out as they"ve defined a good hand by raising

[Swinebag]

yeah i notice the limper is usually holding 22 - 99 and the original raiser is holding AK, AQ, AJ

you dont want to be racing the donks this early in a STT. Their game thrives on winning an early race and calling off light and hoping to get lucky later on

[Pilf]

yeah i notice the limper is usually holding 22 - 99 and the original raiser is holding AK, AQ, AJ
but the limpers plays dont really make alot of sense especially in early stages
the obvious tactic is to get in cheap and set mine but when raised i dont see how going all in is gonna chase the raiser out as they"ve defined a good hand by raising

Although I don"t like this move of pushing to win 5/6 BBs (IMO a small pair should either call or reraise smaller which actually likely looks stronger to your opponent once it has limped) when you may have approx 50 BBs, I do not see how we can assume that the raiser has defined a good hand by raising?!?

[LongshanksED]

maybe not defined but implied?

[Pilf]

Yeah I guess.
Either way, I"m sure we both agree that the players that take this line of limp pushing small pairs, early doors in the small buy in online tournaments are making a mistake as they are unlikely to get called by a worse hand (other than some other gambler with AK as mentioned before) and there is not enough in the pot early doors to justify it.

[noble1]

Yeah I guess.
Either way, I"m sure we both agree that the players that take this line of limp pushing small pairs, early doors in the small buy in online tournaments are making a mistake as they are unlikely to get called by a worse hand (other than some other gambler with AK as mentioned before) and there is not enough in the pot early doors to justify it.

yeah i notice the limper is usually holding 22 - 99 and the original raiser is holding AK, AQ, AJ
but the limpers plays dont really make alot of sense especially in early stages
the obvious tactic is to get in cheap and set mine but when raised i dont see how going all in is gonna chase the raiser out as they"ve defined a good hand by raising

Although I don"t like this move of pushing to win 5/6 BBs (IMO a small pair should either call or reraise smaller which actually likely looks stronger to your opponent once it has limped) when you may have approx 50 BBs, I do not see how we can assume that the raiser has defined a good hand by raising?!?

just remember its not the size of the bet but also your image that matters and how others perceive you. [in some cases image does not matter as some opponents are so bad]
If you have a loose image and you limp re-raise all in with AA you met get paid off rather than doing a std re-raise,the opposite can happen with say 55 and you make a std re-raise with it [60 to 180] but if your image is sh#t you wont get any respect what so ever...Always try to suss out your opponents,often at the low level buy ins many do not respond well to aggression and think you are bluffing if you find these sorts milk them dry..again the opposite is true with the weak tight/loose  sorts who see monsters [bluff any scary flop/board,re-raise them pre]...
What i"m trying to say is that you should adapt to your table dynamics and your opponents rather than having a set way of thinking about things,low buy in mtts can be difficult in the early levels because there are so many inexperienced players but if you see cheap flops in position and have a good idea of your opponents you can take advantage of them.

monkeys see monkeys do [any ace + small pair donks etc]

[noble1]

ok i"m getting bored   nothing is catching my imagination of late and firing up my creative thinking   i started this thread as i hoped people may start to discuss patterns of play and how to adjust/take advantage of them so i"ll point out a pattern and hope someone else will ask about it or come up with one of there to discuss..

I love having a weak tight player to my right,my definition of weak tight is for example when i see someone lead out on a ace flop oop then if called they go into check call mode on the turn and river [and turn over ATo for a pair of aces]..I like to see this pattern a couple of times before i start to trying to take advantage of it because now i know i can call some funky draws on the flop if i am heads up with the villain and get 2 free cards to hit my draw or improve my bottom pair to trips or 2 pair etc etc..
One thing i do not do though when someone shows this type of behaviour is start to re-raise them at any point post flop and try to bluff them off there hands. Because they show this check call pattern from the turn it tends to mean they are afraid of creating a big pot but are more than willing to call it down..If i am in a pot with them and another villain on my left who likes check raising flops or leading out on the turn if checked to then i"ll abandon my 2 free card draw strategy and pick my moment later.This approach works well in low buy in events as a lot of players wont understand what i am doing but if a good player picks up what i am doing they will adjust and start leading out on the turn eventually..

[noble1]

I was observing some action in the stars 1.5milion and this afternoon i was reviewing the histories and came across these.
What do you put these characters on by there bet sizing and lines of play?

1.........
PokerStars Game #28320575120: Tournament #162006007, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIX (4000/8000) - 2009/05/17 21:45:48 ET
Table "162006007 436" 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: acefa (117212 in chips)
Seat 2: munson1049 (110992 in chips)
Seat 3: Andy McLEOD (182778 in chips)
Seat 4: RounderEarne (62965 in chips)
Seat 5: MRisSToNeD88 (392005 in chips)
Seat 6: prOdigy214 (152302 in chips)
Seat 7: DreamOnDream (332377 in chips)
Seat 8: dh3684 (120420 in chips)
Seat 9: Armzzz (146770 in chips)
acefa: posts the ante 800
munson1049: posts the ante 800
Andy McLEOD: posts the ante 800
RounderEarne: posts the ante 800
MRisSToNeD88: posts the ante 800
prOdigy214: posts the ante 800
DreamOnDream: posts the ante 800
dh3684: posts the ante 800
Armzzz: posts the ante 800
prOdigy214: posts small blind 4000
DreamOnDream: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
dh3684: folds
Armzzz: folds
acefa: raises 8000 to 16000
munson1049: folds
Andy McLEOD: folds
RounderEarne: folds
MRisSToNeD88: calls 16000
prOdigy214: folds
DreamOnDream: folds
*** FLOP *** [ah  :as: tc]
acefa: bets 8000
MRisSToNeD88: calls 8000
*** TURN *** [ah  :as: tc] []
acefa: bets 16000
MRisSToNeD88: calls 16000
*** RIVER *** [ah  :as: tc ] [ ::]
acefa: checks
MRisSToNeD88: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
acefa: shows ??
MRisSToNeD88: shows ??


2.............
PokerStars Game #28320812342: Tournament #162006007, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level XX (5000/10000) - 2009/05/17 21:54:36 ET
Table "162006007 436" 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: acefa (246719 in chips)
Seat 2: Big4390 (672800 in chips)
Seat 3: Andy McLEOD (166083 in chips)
Seat 4: Y2JohnK6 (110418 in chips)
Seat 5: MRisSToNeD88 (557970 in chips)
Seat 6: prOdigy214 (124702 in chips)
Seat 7: DreamOnDream (195965 in chips)
Seat 8: dh3684 (98820 in chips)
Seat 9: Armzzz (237562 in chips)
acefa: posts the ante 1000
Big4390: posts the ante 1000
Andy McLEOD: posts the ante 1000
Y2JohnK6: posts the ante 1000
MRisSToNeD88: posts the ante 1000
prOdigy214: posts the ante 1000
DreamOnDream: posts the ante 1000
dh3684: posts the ante 1000
Armzzz: posts the ante 1000
DreamOnDream: posts small blind 5000
dh3684: posts big blind 10000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Armzzz: raises 20000 to 30000
acefa: folds
Big4390: folds
Andy McLEOD: folds
Y2JohnK6: folds
MRisSToNeD88: calls 30000
prOdigy214: folds
DreamOnDream: folds
dh3684: folds
*** FLOP *** [qh jd ac]
Armzzz: bets 40000
MRisSToNeD88: raises 40000 to 80000
Armzzz: raises 126562 to 206562 and is all-in
MRisSToNeD88: calls 126562
*** TURN *** [qh jd ac] []
*** RIVER *** [qh jd ac ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Armzzz: shows ??
MRisSToNeD88: shows ??


3...........
PokerStars Game #28316662675: Tournament #162006007, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (750/1500) - 2009/05/17 19:33:46 ET
Table "162006007 300" 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: lucky13ss (42976 in chips)
Seat 2: Andy McLEOD (37701 in chips)
Seat 3: EASY DZ (60080 in chips)
Seat 4: ZAKAMAK (12014 in chips)
Seat 5: jrjr0430 (23501 in chips)
Seat 6: pokerhahntas (27508 in chips)
Seat 7: TrafficKing (31650 in chips)
Seat 8: icallseat3 (36748 in chips)
Seat 9: dude x 55 (11382 in chips)
lucky13ss: posts the ante 150
Andy McLEOD: posts the ante 150
EASY DZ: posts the ante 150
ZAKAMAK: posts the ante 150
jrjr0430: posts the ante 150
pokerhahntas: posts the ante 150
TrafficKing: posts the ante 150
icallseat3: posts the ante 150
dude x 55: posts the ante 150
EASY DZ: posts small blind 750
ZAKAMAK: posts big blind 1500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
jrjr0430: folds
pokerhahntas: folds
TrafficKing: folds
icallseat3: raises 1999 to 3499
dude x 55: folds
lucky13ss: calls 3499
Andy McLEOD: folds
EASY DZ: folds
ZAKAMAK: folds
*** FLOP *** [ jh ]
icallseat3: bets 3999
lucky13ss: calls 3999
*** TURN *** [ jh ] [ks]
icallseat3: checks
lucky13ss: bets 7500
icallseat3: calls 7500
*** RIVER *** [ jh ks] []
icallseat3: checks
lucky13ss: bets 22500
icallseat3: calls 21600 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (900) returned to lucky13ss
*** SHOW DOWN ***
lucky13ss: shows ??
icallseat3: shows ??

[tonyj444]

1)  acefa has raised from ep/mp with an M of only 6 so seems reasonable to put him on a strong range without any other reads - [88+, AQs+, AKo] seems reasonable?  MrIsStoned is more difficult to put on a hand pre.  Given acefa"s probable range I would expect a re-raise with AK to isolate and AQ should probably be passing.  Which then leaves pps.  Not a lot of set-mining value (given effective stack size) so I would say [99+] seems reasonable but with AA/KK being more unlikely than the rest.

On the flop the action could actually fit pretty much any hand in either player"s range.  KK/QQ is probably less likely to bet the flop but all other pairs probably do (except TT) and with the small bet, AK/AQ also seem reasonable.  I would expect MrIsStoned to call with all of his range to this bet. 

Turn bet feels like 99/JJ/QQ trying to find out where it is - I would expect AK/AQ to either bet slightly more for value or check to induce a bluff but they are possible with the line up to this point.  MrIsStoned still can"t be sure where he is but doesn"t want to raise with most of his range.  I would say his call probably narrows it to TT/JJ/QQ.

Check on the end doesn"t really fit with AK/AQ as with the lack of strength shown so far and MrIsStoned"s likely range then these hands should probably bet for value (something similar to turn bet).  MrIsStoned"s check confirms that he doesn"t have TT so his most likely hand is JJ/QQ with 99/KK less likely possibilities.  Acefa"s most likely holding is very similar 99/JJ/QQ with KK/88 also possible.

Given that QQ can probably bet for value when checked to here lets go out on a limb and say MrIsStoned has JJ and Acefa has 99.  Just my thoughts (probably wrong), I look forward to seeing what everyone else thinks.

Edit:  Lunch break is over so will just post my hand guesstimates for 2 & 3 with analysis to hopefully follow tomorrow.

2)  
armzzz QQ
MrIsStoned AA

3)
icallseat AK/QQ
lucky13 Lots of different busted draws + 88 or AcKc

[noble1]

ok not far off
results -
1.......................
Poker Stars $200+$15 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t4000/t8000 Blinds + t800 - 9 players -

UTG+2: t117212       M = 6.10
MP1: t110992       M = 5.78
MP2: t182778       M = 9.52
CO: t62965       M = 3.28
BTN: t392005       M = 20.42
SB: t152302       M = 7.93
BB: t332377       M = 17.31
UTG: t120420       M = 6.27
UTG+1: t146770       M = 7.64

Pre Flop: (t19200)
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to t16000, 3 folds, BTN calls t16000, 2 folds

Flop: (t51200) ah  :as: tc (2 players)
UTG+2 bets t8000, BTN calls t8000

Turn: (t67200) (2 players)
UTG+2 bets t16000, BTN calls t16000

River: (t99200)  :: (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, BTN checks

Final Pot: t99200
UTG+2 shows jd qd (a pair of Aces)
BTN shows (two pair, Aces and Nines)
BTN wins t99200



2...............
Poker Stars $200+$15 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t5000/t10000 Blinds + t1000 - 9 players -

UTG+1: t246719       M = 10.28
UTG+2: t672800       M = 28.03
MP1: t166083       M = 6.92
MP2: t110418       M = 4.60
CO: t557970       M = 23.25
BTN: t124702       M = 5.20
SB: t195965       M = 8.17
BB: t98820       M = 4.12
UTG: t237562       M = 9.90

Pre Flop: (t24000)
UTG raises to t30000, 4 folds, CO calls t30000, 3 folds

Flop: (t84000)  qh  jd  ac (2 players)
UTG bets t40000, CO raises to t80000, UTG raises to t206562 all in, CO calls t126562

Turn: (t497124)   (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t497124)   (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t497124
CO shows  th kh (a straight, Ten to Ace)
UTG shows  ad qd (two pair, Aces and Queens)
CO wins t497124



3...................
Poker Stars $200+$15 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t750/t1500 Blinds + t150 - 9 players -

CO: t42976       M = 11.94
BTN: t37701       M = 10.47
SB: t60080       M = 16.69
BB: t12014       M = 3.34
UTG: t23501       M = 6.53
UTG+1: t27508       M = 7.64
UTG+2: t31650       M = 8.79
MP1: t36748       M = 10.21
MP2: t11382       M = 3.16

Pre Flop: (t3600)
3 folds, MP1 raises to t3499, 1 fold, CO calls t3499, 3 folds

Flop: (t10598)  jh (2 players)
MP1 bets t3999, CO calls t3999

Turn: (t18596)  ks (2 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets t7500, MP1 calls t7500

River: (t33596) (2 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets t22500, MP1 calls t21600 all in

Final Pot: t76796
CO shows  ac qh (a pair of Sixes)
MP1 shows  ah kc (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
MP1 wins t76796

[noble1]

hand 1.. woeful betting and calling - QJ bet sizes gave his hand away as weak and 99 only called flop + turn with no apparent plan for the river but to check and didn"t use his position..

hand 2.. could AQ get away from this to a min rr on the flop? [the rr came from the player who had earlier played 99 like a passive donk was now wanting to play a big pot]

hand 3.. i quite like the way he played his AK here on the turn,what do we think to AQ"s bluff here? does anyone make any sense of his bet sizing on the turn?.. the cbet was #*##* .. after seeing this, hands up who thinks AQ"s line of play was the best approach...

does anyone recognise these patterns or bet sizing in games that you have played in??