Stop and go versus pre-flop shove

[WarBwastardo]

I"ve heard that some people get so low in tournaments sometimes that they"re reduced to shoving the remainder of their stack in with practically any two cards.  I"ve never been in this situation of course...but anyway, should it happen to me one day what factors determine whether you shove it all in pre-flop or use the stop and go move?

Without a specific scenario to work from that"s a fairly vague question, but vague is this season"s black so do your best.    

[AMRN]

I tend to favour Stop And Go if I"m in the blinds with a pocket pair and am fairly short stacked (less than say 15 BBs), and a big stack makes a standard open raise from mid position.

My thoughts are that if I re-raise from the BB preflop, he is probably pot committed (or will consider that he is getting value with a maximum loss factor equiv to my stack so may gamble with overcards knowing he"s behind).

Let"s say I have 88 and face this mid position re-raise. If he has 99+ or AK/AQ he is probably autocalling if I shove preflop...... however if I flat call preflop, then open shove whatever comes on the flop, he will find it very hard to call if he has 99+ and there is an overcard on the board, or if he has AK and has missed the flop.  Of course an A or a K may be destined for the turn of the river, and by playing the Stop And Go, I have potentially limited his opportunity to three cards instead of five.

If an A comes on the flop and my shove is called my AK, well c"est la vie - this would have happened if I"d re-raised all in preflop anyway. Just have to be prepared to follow through and shove when the ugly flop comes knowing that he will miss it more than he hits it, so +EV.

[LongshanksED]

pretty much same thoughts as above

if im down to less than 10bb"s i might shove pre flop but when that shortstacked i reckon you"ll get the call anyway from the raiser

[noble1]

pretty much same thoughts as above

if im down to less than 10bb"s i might shove pre flop but when that shortstacked i reckon you"ll get the call anyway from the raiser

correct LongshanksED , especially if you try this move on experienced players who know the moves.
Also if you read a large stack raising with a tight range and you dont fancy a gamble then folding is the best option,if i had a 15bb stack i"d look to re-steal shove from the 20 to 30bb stacks or from some weak types [depends on reads]
You can use the go+go as i call it like how AMRN has described but it is more effective when your stack is 25bb+ and you re-raise pre , villian calls then you shove all in on flop.

[kinboshi]

My vague thoughts are as follows.

It depends (added for additional vagueness).  But I will tend to shove pre if I think that I can get the others to fold.  So in effect, I"m treating my hand as a bluff and 74o is as good as AQ here.  If I don"t think I have fold equity, and my shove is going to get called in at least one spot, then I want to be live or be ahead. 

A stop-n-go works well against weaker players who will fold if they miss the flop.  Of course, if they hit - you"re buggered, but that won"t happen most of the time.

My stack size and the stack size of the others is key here imo.

[George2Loose]

they"re too commonplace these days 2 be effective I prefer to shove or fold. If u have 88 and the button opens surely u want to shove if you think you"re ahead of their range?

[Roscopiko]

I think the main difference is hand strength and stack size.

With 10BB or less you cant really stop and go effectively as your fold equity is pretty much gone so i would reshove but u would have to a hand you are happy to go to showdown with on occasion, ie 89 over A2 every time.

Stop and go allows you to play atc and abuse the nitty who will fold post flop but not pre. I think you need more than 10bb to make this a winning play tho.

[George2Loose]

You may reduce variance but I think you can lose equity.

I don"t like the stop and go as a play.

[Swinebag]

I personally prefer the shove but can see the merits of stop and going.
I agree with george about reducing variance and equity too.

[AMRN]

how many times have you found yourself in the blinds with a pocket pair, and re-raised all in only to be called by the mid-position raiser"s AK..... then you survive the flop, but see an A/K on the turn or river........    well at least by playing the Stop and Go move instead of the re-raise all in preflop, you increase your chances of your pair standing up against the overcards - he only has 3 cards to hit instead of all 5.

[LongshanksED]

how many times have you found yourself in the blinds with a pocket pair, and re-raised all in only to be called by the mid-position raiser"s AK..... then you survive the flop, but see an A/K on the turn or river........    well at least by playing the Stop and Go move instead of the re-raise all in preflop, you increase your chances of your pair standing up against the overcards - he only has 3 cards to hit instead of all 5.

just today that happened to me (well similar)

30 man sit n go and down to last 8 and 5 get paid

average chip count of 5k blinds of 100/200 - i have 6.5k on button and villian has 4k
villian in utg +1 limps in, folded round to me with pocket jacks and i raise to 1000
villian calls

622 flop and villain checks, i bet the pot of 2.3k and villian insta calls shoves (another 500 or so to me) - so i think well he slow played aces or kings, it happens but i have to call now and he turns over king 9

king on the river cripples me into the short stack

i go into the chat box and ask how he can make the call, it was a bit donkey ish (trying to be diplomatic) and he replies (and in capitals to vent his anger)
IM NOT A DONKEY, YOU ARE, YOUR THE LOSER YOU HOMO (?)

so i say and without losing my cool for a change that he had virtually no hand and he shouts again I HAVE OVERPAIR

no i say, you had overcards, did you even think for a second what cards i could raise and push with on that flop but i get no answer

an orbit later and with 10-10 on the button i raise all in for 1.5 but get a caller with kings, 10 on the flop but king river again knocks me out

[Swinebag]

i go into the chat box and ask how he can make the call, it was a bit donkey ish (trying to be diplomatic) and he replies (and in capitals to vent his anger)
IM NOT A DONKEY, YOU ARE, YOUR THE LOSER YOU HOMO (?)

so i say and without losing my cool for a change that he had virtually no hand and he shouts again I HAVE OVERPAIR

no i say, you had overcards, did you even think for a second what cards i could raise and push with on that flop but i get no answer

SHANKS...DONT TAP THE TANK!!!

Thats what I"d have put in the chatbox if I"d have been at your table

I"d never put what you did in the chatbox, for the simple reason that you want him calling with 2 overs (especially when he thinks he has an overpair LOL). By putting a reasoned argument in the chatbox you are helping him improve as a player and making it harder for you to beat him in the future....

Also, by discussing strategy in the chatbox you give an awful lot of reads away to your more attentive oponents to put in their notes about you..

[LongshanksED]

SHANKS...DONT TAP THE TANK!!!

must admit i rarely use the chat box but his play infuriated me a bit (hellmuth stylee rant)

[noble1]

LongshanksED that made me cry with laughter , please promise me you will do this in a live poker event [televised tv table preferably  ] The ratings would soar for espn,sky,channel5 etc etc  Tee shirt deals - on the front of the shirt it would say
""i"m not a donkey"" and on the back ""over pairs are for LOSER HOMO"S""
you would make thousands LongshanksED  

[George2Loose]

how many times have you found yourself in the blinds with a pocket pair, and re-raised all in only to be called by the mid-position raiser"s AK..... then you survive the flop, but see an A/K on the turn or river........    well at least by playing the Stop and Go move instead of the re-raise all in preflop, you increase your chances of your pair standing up against the overcards - he only has 3 cards to hit instead of all 5.

Two words- results orientated.

What about this scenario? 99 raises from the button- u flat with tens, the flop comes AJ2 you check he bets you fold......

OR

The flop comes J 7 4, you move in and 99 FOLDS

Your losing equity in this spot so many times by stop and going.

You have to win races to win tournaments- FACT.