Can I have comments on this hand please, dubious pot odds call?

[jbworldwide]

OK just busted, question though?

And I am using this as a learning point because I may have missed something.

blinds 300/150

ME on the button with $2195.00 AQ off

raise in mid position from A to 3x standard raise. $900 with KJ off

I push all in, A has 3090.00 behind.

so $1295 to call.

with the 900 + 2195 + 300 + 150 =3545 in pot to call

2.73:1 is that pot odds to call?

considering it is over a third of stack to call

I was called and the answer given was pot odds, I am not so sure

Comments please as this will help my game

Thanks

[WarBwastardo]

If you don"t have Kings or Aces, having one live card will give him a 25% chance of winning I think - so roughly a 3/1 dog, so it"s not a terrible call.  But in this format when you"re playing for seats not money and ten seats up for grabs I think the argument for folding stronger.

[AMRN]

having already committed 900, and being asked to commit only 1295 more, I would say he is pot committed. also, looking at taking a pot that will be a total of 4840, he only needs to win something like 1 in 3.5 to make it a profitable move.... the only danger he has here is that he is dominated by AJ or AK..... but I think that"s a chance he has to take.

pretty standard call IMO

[WarBwastardo]

having already committed 900, and being asked to commit only 1295 more, I would say he is pot committed. also, looking at taking a pot that will be a total of 4840, he only needs to win something like 1 in 3.5 to make it a profitable move.... the only danger he has here is that he is dominated by AJ or AK..... but I think that"s a chance he has to take.

pretty standard call IMO

If he" dominated he"s 26% which is 3/1 isn"t it..and the odds were 2.7 something.  Same odds I think if the guy has pocket queens or Jacks.  Numbers bleegh.  

[AMRN]

If you don"t have Kings or Aces, having one live card will give him a 25% chance of winning I think - so roughly a 3/1 dog, so it"s not a terrible call.  But in this format when you"re playing for seats not money and ten seats up for grabs I think the argument for folding stronger.

But judging by the time of the post (about same time as my exit) 3000 chips was a long way down the ladder, and action is required to make the seats.

[jbworldwide]

I am just getting a view on this, was my move a bad one?

[Swinebag]

commented on this on another thread.

I feel the JK guy is pot committed and has to call. He is flipping against a lot of your range given your shove and stack size. I"m sure he"s not happy to call but feels compelled to.

If player did any thing wrong it was not shoving in the first place.

As it played out...standard small stacks with big blind type hand.

Your move was not bad as you were short stacked and couldn"t wait all day for a better hand (or to be first in). By reraising you are only worried about QQ+ and AK there is a lot of his range that you are beating or flipping with so you have to go with it.

If you did anything wrong, it was thinking that the guy might fold

[Eck]

If you did anything wrong, it was thinking that the guy might fold

this

[WarBwastardo]

This is why I don"t play online - all this thinking and only 20 seconds.  I agree 3,000 isn"t a lot with the blinds at 150/300, but he"ll have a better chance of winning a seat with 10 big blinds than if he calls as a 3/1 dog and busts out.  If he felt he would defo win a seat if he called and won, it"s case of are my chances of winning a seat better than 25% if I fold and play on with 10xBB. 

I still think I"d have folded, but I"m not surprised he called. 

[AMRN]

I am just getting a view on this, was my move a bad one?

Nope - your move was spot on.... but I also happen to think his call was ok too. He got lucky - that"s poker.

[jbworldwide]

Yes I think my move was right, I was just wondering if I was in the other position whether I should be calling from now on, or at least considering it properly. I think I prob would have folded there most of the time.  

[noble1]

commented on this on another thread.

I feel the JK guy is pot committed and has to call. He is flipping against a lot of your range given your shove and stack size. I"m sure he"s not happy to call but feels compelled to.

If player did any thing wrong it was not shoving in the first place.

As it played out...standard small stacks with big blind type hand.

Your move was not bad as you were short stacked and couldn"t wait all day for a better hand (or to be first in). By reraising you are only worried about QQ+ and AK there is a lot of his range that you are beating or flipping with so you have to go with it.

If you did anything wrong, it was thinking that the guy might fold

as per swinebag said....

AQ fine to shove , as long as you read him on a wide range - 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo

his odds of 2.73 = 1/3.73*100=26.80% equity so even if he thinks your range is -
88+,ATs+,KQs,AKo
his equity to call is 31% so it is a auto call for a decent player considering blinds and what he has left behind..

but you got all in a 6to4 favourite so well done [just lucked out sir]

[Waz1892]

 I commented on the original thred before it moved here.....like to know if im working this kind of stuff out correctly?

ok proper intrigued now...3-1 odds (just under)..he has KJ..he must know he is behind a range of  an all in re-raise..so wot is the thinking / calculating required.

kj..6 cards to improve...though are the 3 jacks live (thus pair j) to the re-raise all in?..and possilbe already a king out..so maybe only 2 cards to catch?..38 cards left..16% if 6 cards? (6.25-1)

where is NOBLE1 when u need him!!!

[Swinebag]

Do not confused between "pot odds" and chances of winning (referred to as equity).

You are talking about your chances of winning here but your calculation is not how you work out your chances of winning here.

firstly when calculating outs (lets say 6 for arguments sake here) you have to take it from unseen cards and not cards in the deck. So there are 48 unseen cards. this does not mean that his odds are 6 in 48 of winning (or 1 in 8 or 7 to 1 - whatever). The odds you worked out Waz were the chances of a winning card hitting "first card out". Of course during the showdown there will be five chances of hitting the winning card so your chances of hitting are greatly increased.

in this particular instance there is also a chance that JK only has 3 outs so this affects the calculation. If it is a coin flip against a lower pair then there is the chance that JK can win if two pair come on the board to counterfeit the smaller pair. There are of course straight and flush possibilities for JK to win.

So.....

all these possibilities of winning (however likely or unlikey) make calculating the chance of winning near impossible

enter our friend....."pokerstove"

this program will work out JKs equity against single hands as well as against a range of hands that could be reshoving against it.

Of course, during an online tournament you haven"t really got time to plug all this in so it comes down to playing around with pokerstove and familiarising yourself with the variables so that you have a good idea of the value of your hand against various hand ranges.

The key calculation that you can make are your "pot odds" which for KJ fella can be worked out as roughly just under 3 to 1. As a guide this can be argued as a call with with any 2 cards let alone the "powerhouse" that is KJ.

noble explains this stuff much better but I hope this helps

[noble1]

Do not confused between "pot odds" and chances of winning (referred to as equity).

You are talking about your chances of winning here but your calculation is not how you work out your chances of winning here.

firstly when calculating outs (lets say 6 for arguments sake here) you have to take it from unseen cards and not cards in the deck. So there are 48 unseen cards. this does not mean that his odds are 6 in 48 of winning (or 1 in 8 or 7 to 1 - whatever). The odds you worked out Waz were the chances of a winning card hitting "first card out". Of course during the showdown there will be five chances of hitting the winning card so your chances of hitting are greatly increased.

in this particular instance there is also a chance that JK only has 3 outs so this affects the calculation. If it is a coin flip against a lower pair then there is the chance that JK can win if two pair come on the board to counterfeit the smaller pair. There are of course straight and flush possibilities for JK to win.

So.....

all these possibilities of winning (however likely or unlikey) make calculating the chance of winning near impossible

enter our friend....."pokerstove"

this program will work out JKs equity against single hands as well as against a range of hands that could be reshoving against it.

Of course, during an online tournament you haven"t really got time to plug all this in so it comes down to playing around with pokerstove and familiarising yourself with the variables so that you have a good idea of the value of your hand against various hand ranges.

The key calculation that you can make are your "pot odds" which for KJ fella can be worked out as roughly just under 3 to 1. As a guide this can be argued as a call with with any 2 cards let alone the "powerhouse" that is KJ.

noble explains this stuff much better but I hope this helps

that seems fine to me  

as per what swinebag says Waz1892 get pokerstove [google it] it is a free download
and every time you play a hand try to start thinking of your opponents possible holdings in ranges [AA KK QQ AK AQ etc thats my range by the way  ]

when you get pokerstove just post up any questions on ranges to put villians on and equity to call if your not sure... there is plenty of people on APAT who use this stuff and know how it works and who will answer you...