TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??

[billwillo]

Thanks Jon MW for comments but I was suggesting the best losers who had never played in any live national before, not just the best losers.  

[Jon MW]

Thanks Jon MW for comments but I was suggesting the best losers who had never played in any live national before, not just the best losers. 

it"s only a minor difference, it still just basically means moving the problem around rather than solving it.

and Kin, ffs - first season, last season - whatever, you can"t expect me to use exactly the right words every single time.

[jon_garrett]

Have read this topic with great interest from start to now and clearly it"s one that is going to rumble on through the season. Am going to have my say for now...

Firstly, to reiterate, Des, Tighty etc... give their own free time to organise the events so that others like myself can attend affordable, well run poker tournaments with good structures in a variety of locations. To expect a simple extension to two day ones using the current organisational structures is completely unrealistic and anyone advocating this should think very hard about what it means with regards to Des etc... putting even more time in. To Des and the team... This effort is hugely appreciated by the vast majority of players who attend the events.

Next, I do believe that the incredible demand for the first national this season demonstrates that APAT is a great success and has indeed grown significantly which has caused this conversation as there are many people who unfortunately are missing out on the event. For now I think the current system is as fair as possible and has been clearly communicated so that all know how seats are assigned and that if you are desperate to play there are several ways in. I suspect it will be here for the rest of season three so if you are having problems you will need to find a solution. e.g. if you are in a house with only 1 pc and there are two of you why not get a friend who has a pc to register in your name? I don"t think it matters who pays for the seat as long as it is in your name at the start of the process. Similarly if you cannot type find someone who can and get them to register and so on. (In actual fact I think the registration happens on the first screen when you type your name in and that the payment stuff is incidental so you do not need to be a fast typer, just be there when the link goes live and be able to type your name...)

Back to the topic at hand. I"m sure Des and the team are thinking extensively about this and will come up with some good ideas so I for one think we should be at least a little patient. That is not to say we can"t discuss but that we should realise that they will be thinking about this as well.

From my point of view I think that two day ones is going to be inescapable if APAT is going to continue to grow as the casino capacities mean that in most cases 200 players at one time is the max. If that"s the case then all sorts of things will need to change. As Des said, it costs £2000 per day for the casino meaning that there will almost certainly have to be "juice" to cover this and other costs. It will also mean different people will have to get involved in organisation (this may or may not mean more "juice" as these may not be volunteers) as it is unreasonable to expect Des etc... to give up more of their time. Alternatively APAT may have to find a "semi-permanent" home (DTD for example) than can hold more than 200 players. It could be that half the events are held in the same place and that the other half stay as 200 runner events. As I"ve said I"m sure Des etc... are already thinking ahead.

[KarmaDope]

(In actual fact I think the registration happens on the first screen when you type your name in and that the payment stuff is incidental so you do not need to be a fast typer, just be there when the link goes live and be able to type your name...)

Sorry, I just saw this bit and am highlighting it for clarification by APAT - mainly because I"m 99% sure that it"s not when you type your name in, it"s when your payment is processed. That"s why even though we had people finish at 9.02, their payment wasn"t received by the processors until 9.04 and that"s why they didn"t get in.

[APAT]

I"m finding this debate interesting and would like to thank everyone for the effort that has gone into your suggestions. 

APAT has not reached this point through luck.  We were the first major poker tour to launch in the UK and were the largest tour in the world in 2008.  Where others have spent hundreds of thousands promoting their tour, APAT has not spent a penny.  There are some sound thinkers onboard and I believe, a smart strategy in place. 

There are no plans to increase the number of days beyond what has been published for Season Three.  Any further growth this season will be in Europe, where we hope to announce some events shortly.   That is not through a lack of wanting to deliver what our customers want, but there are numerous barriers in place.

There could well be a significant growth opportunity for our UK events in Season Four, however we cannot discuss any details at this time.

[APAT]

(In actual fact I think the registration happens on the first screen when you type your name in and that the payment stuff is incidental so you do not need to be a fast typer, just be there when the link goes live and be able to type your name...)

Sorry, I just saw this bit and am highlighting it for clarification by APAT - mainly because I"m 99% sure that it"s not when you type your name in, it"s when your payment is processed. That"s why even though we had people finish at 9.02, their payment wasn"t received by the processors until 9.04 and that"s why they didn"t get in.

That is correct Adam.  It is the time that the payment is processed / reserved that counts.

[bigredders]

Have read this topic with great interest from start to now and clearly it"s one that is going to rumble on through the season. Am going to have my say for now...

Firstly, to reiterate, Des, Tighty etc... give their own free time to organise the events so that others like myself can attend affordable, well run poker tournaments with good structures in a variety of locations. To expect a simple extension to two day ones using the current organisational structures is completely unrealistic and anyone advocating this should think very hard about what it means with regards to Des etc... putting even more time in. To Des and the team... This effort is hugely appreciated by the vast majority of players who attend the events.

Next, I do believe that the incredible demand for the first national this season demonstrates that APAT is a great success and has indeed grown significantly which has caused this conversation as there are many people who unfortunately are missing out on the event. For now I think the current system is as fair as possible and has been clearly communicated so that all know how seats are assigned and that if you are desperate to play there are several ways in. I suspect it will be here for the rest of season three so if you are having problems you will need to find a solution. e.g. if you are in a house with only 1 pc and there are two of you why not get a friend who has a pc to register in your name? I don"t think it matters who pays for the seat as long as it is in your name at the start of the process. Similarly if you cannot type find someone who can and get them to register and so on. (In actual fact I think the registration happens on the first screen when you type your name in and that the payment stuff is incidental so you do not need to be a fast typer, just be there when the link goes live and be able to type your name...)

Back to the topic at hand. I"m sure Des and the team are thinking extensively about this and will come up with some good ideas so I for one think we should be at least a little patient. That is not to say we can"t discuss but that we should realise that they will be thinking about this as well.

From my point of view I think that two day ones is going to be inescapable if APAT is going to continue to grow as the casino capacities mean that in most cases 200 players at one time is the max. If that"s the case then all sorts of things will need to change. As Des said, it costs £2000 per day for the casino meaning that there will almost certainly have to be "juice" to cover this and other costs. It will also mean different people will have to get involved in organisation (this may or may not mean more "juice" as these may not be volunteers) as it is unreasonable to expect Des etc... to give up more of their time. Alternatively APAT may have to find a "semi-permanent" home (DTD for example) than can hold more than 200 players. It could be that half the events are held in the same place and that the other half stay as 200 runner events. As I"ve said I"m sure Des etc... are already thinking ahead.

very well put. i think the BOTTOM line in this matter is that the operation is not just an amateur poker tournament, it is an amateur association, run by people who have full time jobs. this situation has arised before and im afraid i dont think there is a viable way around it. There are so much more issues to address than just putting on an extra day, are volunteers available, dealers available, enough casino staff available amongst many others. Its ok saying people will turn up on the 1st day on friday but what happens if only 50 people want to play on the friday and 350 want and have to play on the saturday due to their jobs etc. its a known fact that the fields for gukpt"s have shorter numbers for the 1st day than the 2nd, and most of them are pro"s that dont have jobs.

i think if there is any consolation is that the first event, especially with it being in a central location is probably the most popular event on the tour. im sure that all that missed out will have an opportunity later in the season. besides, dublin for example is a much nicer place than walsall!!!!

once you get into one of these events you will realise why they are so popular!

[mattblue]

gptuk as more less the same on both days and there is less pros play and more pls who have got jobs who play but we are talking about apat which i think is a much better game than blue sq gptuk having played in a few myself of each and des and the rest of his team do a really good job woop woop see u in walsall

[CrizzyConnor]

Season 3 is set in stone so no point arguing with it any further...

In Season 4 however, if it would help with the possible inclusion of a second day and lead to less disappointed people, I and am sure many others would be happy to pay say £10 in juice for every tournament. There"s no reason why we shouldn"t be paying juice on such well run tournaments.

Of course this doesn"t help with Des & Tighty"s personal reasons for not being able to attend on Fridays (work/family) but maybe the Juice could be used to pay for someone to host Day 1 in their place, and with a possible 400 runners paying £10 each, even give you guys a bit of compensation (and thanks) for giving up so much of your personal time for APAT and all the great work done so far!

[RioRodent]

...

The casinos won"t commit dealers and the additional staff to 3-day events (at this level of buy-in where they receive no juice).

There is no juice paid by the players, but the casino"s do not provide their services for free. APAT / Blue Square have to pay a sum to Grosvenor Casinos (and I"m sure to DTD) for each event.

Presumably, should the decision be made to extend the National events to 3 days... thereby putting an extra 200 people in the casino on a Friday... it may be possible to get the sponsor to foot the additional costs [post recession, obv!!].

Maybe a few a season could be 3-dayers, but not the majority. So two day ones is impossible...

Contradictory??  

Otherwise, a top post by Daniel San.  

For those advocating that we [the players] could / should pay juice on top of the buy-in... Why?

For years, poker players have been complaining that the juice has been too high. Particularly on the big televised tours... the tours all have big sponsorship deals and TV income, yet they still want the players to not only provide the vast majority of the prize money (for WSOP, read "all prize money"), but also to pay a registration fee (juice) on top.

What APAT is doing is showing that it is not necessary for us to pay the juice, but that the sponsor should foot that bill as well as add value to the prize pool.

The bottom line, IMHO... the APAT Nationals should be extended to 3-days, but only at such time that the additional costs* incurred can be negotiated with the sponsor(s).

*These costs to include suitable recompense for APAT officials.

The End

[CrizzyConnor]

Yes APAT has a sponsorship deal but I"m sure it"s not massive like the other tours you refer to.

Why should us players pay Juice?

Why shouldn"t we is the question in my opinion...

Why should we get use of the dealers, use of the cardroom, free buffet, a great day/weekend away etc. etc. and not in some way contribute to the cost...

I personally wouldn"t mind paying juice and i"m sure a lot of people would feel the same. If the big tours run by corporate bigwigs are coining it in, why should APAT, a tour run by amatuers have to run solely on sponsorship?

[Chipaccrual]

Yes APAT has a sponsorship deal but I"m sure it"s not massive like the other tours you refer to.

To give you an idea.  In season 2, as was mentioned on numerous occasions, Blue Square sponsored APAT to the tune of $200,000.  All of which went back to the players in added value, no juice etc etc.

Obviously season 3 is tougher due to the current economic climate, but that is the sort of support that these sponsors are prepared to back APAT and amateur poker, and trust me, they don"t just throw their money around without a lot of thought and planning.

Why should us players pay Juice?

Why shouldn"t we is the question in my opinion...

There are a number of reasons why I beleive in what APAT is doing and why I give up a lot of my time to support it.  High up that list is :-

Standardising Rules
Reducing/Eliminating fees or rake in sponsored events.

I highlight sponsored, because as Rio has already mentioned, why when an event is sponsored by a large organisation, should the players have to lump up a fee on top of the money going into the prizepool.

I think the day APAT has to charge juice, we take a very large step backwards and take away a large part of why APAT is so different and respected in the poker community.

Long may this debate over how to manage the demand continue.  It is fascinating reading and I will add mny thoughts as and when.

Leigh

[CrizzyConnor]

It"s all very well and good having an ethos, sticking to it and being respected because of it. But when that ethos can stunt your growth? I dunno. There"s an "economic downturn" happening right now so the sponsors have obviously cut some costs when APAT needs MORE funds in order to grow.

There is nothing wrong with the way everything is going just now and I have no problems really, i"m thinking more of the number of people who are complaining about not getting into nationals etc. APAT is going to have to grow one day because more and more people are going to be joining as each season passes. And in order to grow funds are needed, and if we the players need to pay a little juice to fund the growth of such a great organisation then I have no problem with that.

I don"t see APAT in the same way I see all these other corporate sponsored tours, it"s different and while I may hold the same views as both of you regarding those tours - I don"t believe I would apply the same view to APAT in any way if I had to pay a little juice, I would see it as doing a little bit to pay back and help fund the growth of something great.

[Chipaccrual]

It"s all very well and good having an ethos, sticking to it and being respected because of it. But when that ethos can stunt your growth? I dunno. There"s an "economic downturn" happening right now so the sponsors have obviously cut some costs when APAT needs MORE funds in order to grow.

There is nothing wrong with the way everything is going just now and I have no problems really, i"m thinking more of the number of people who are complaining about not getting into nationals etc. APAT is going to have to grow one day because more and more people are going to be joining as each season passes. And in order to grow funds are needed, and if we the players need to pay a little juice to fund the growth of such a great organisation then I have no problem with that.

I don"t see APAT in the same way I see all these other corporate sponsored tours, it"s different and while I may hold the same views as both of you regarding those tours - I don"t believe I would apply the same view to APAT in any way if I had to pay a little juice, I would see it as doing a little bit to pay back and help fund the growth of something great.

Fair comments, nicely put.

[Hammerheid]

anyone thought that casinos get some juice when an APAT tourney is in progress as there is the best part of 200 people buying adult juice at the bar , dont tell me they dont get a healthy whack from that area