What have we got??

[Swinebag]

OK folks, hand from the stars 200K

villain is loose passive pre flop

1. What do you put me on?
2. what do you put the villain on?

PokerStars Game #24271158788: Tournament #134680583, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2009/01/25 16:27:42 ET
Table "134680583 2284" 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: jedxyz (2795 in chips)
Seat 2: Shackedin05 (4670 in chips)
Seat 3: Villain (4800 in chips)
Seat 4: 3TC3 (4580 in chips)
Seat 5: Rasmussen (3040 in chips)
Seat 6: dronnie (6380 in chips)
Seat 7: iLWiNnRuN (2215 in chips)
Seat 8: swinebag (3887 in chips)
Seat 9: enkeltpils (5800 in chips)
enkeltpils: posts small blind 100
jedxyz: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to swinebag [?, ?]
Shackedin05: folds
villain: calls 200
3TC3: folds
Rasmussen: folds
dronnie: folds
iLWiNnRuN: folds
swinebag: raises 500 to 700
enkeltpils: folds
jedxyz: folds
villain: calls 500
*** FLOP *** [ ]
villain: checks
swinebag: bets 1100
villain: raises 3000 to 4100 and is all-in
swinebag: folds
Uncalled bet (3000) returned to gsmitty82
villain collected 3900 from pot
villain: doesn"t show hand

[PokerDan1984]

Any one to guess?

I"ll put the villian on  

You prob hmmmm...... KQo

[WarBwastardo]

Villain set of 5"s, you 10"s, JJ"s or sommat

[noble1]

forget the fact swinebag folds , does anyone think he folded an ace?

[MAIR]

Im guessing you had KK or possibly QQ.

The villain, with his check raising you, could have a set of 7"s or 5"s, but with his loose passive play pre-flop he could be holding 6c8c and be pushing to hit a flush or str8 or even KQ c

[lukybugur]

Swinebag - you"re on Button so your range is wide-ish but for almost 1/4 of your chips to go in pf, it must have been a decent-ish starting hand - A8s / ATo?

For you to bet out on that texture of board, it appears you"re trying to end the hand here. I"d put you on a weak A or maybe protecting 2nd top pair at best.

Him, I"m reckoning AQo or KQc.

[kinboshi]

Im guessing you had KK or possibly QQ.

This.

The villain, with his check raising you, could have a set of 7"s or 5"s, but with his loose passive play pre-flop he could be holding 6c8c and be pushing to hit a flush or str8 or even KQ c

Or a rag ace.

[LongshanksED]

i put swine on a medium pair - 66 - 10 10 (although not 77 obviously)

villan a weak ace

[Zanshin]

You - I"ll guess AK or AQ

Him - I"ll guess Ax suited with the x being a 5 or a 7

[mal666]

 ::

[tonyj444]

Villain"s range is massive since you have given us no read other than loose-passive pre-flop.  If we extend this to his postflop play then we must assume he has hit this flop pretty hard (since by definition a passive player is not c-raising an unmade hand).  So most likely becomes A5/A7 with 55/77/57 also possible.  If he is especially passive pre then AQ/AK could also be in his range here.

In terms of your hand, I actually think QQ/KK is pretty unlikely since on the texture of this board there is little reason for you to bet.  If you"re ahead villain more than likely only has 2/3 outs so allowing him a free card doesn"t cost you too much.  88-JJ is very much in your range here and makes sense with the betting pattern.  It also follows that you could have folded an A given the above read on villain, even AK is behind his range.  I don"t especially like betting an A on this board if you intend to fold to a raise however since you may as well check behind and bet the turn.  If villain has hit he will probably bet into you on the turn and you can reasses then based on his bet size.  Finally missed hands such as KQ/KJ are also in your range here and would match your line.

[kinboshi]

Tony brushed on the issue in his post, but you only mention that the villain is loose-passive pre.  How does he tend to play post-flop?

[Swinebag]

Ok I had KK (well done Mair)

I probably shouldn"t have bet that flop, but given that I did, what should I do now??

[kinboshi]

Ok I had KK (well done Mair)

I probably shouldn"t have bet that flop, but given that I did, what should I do now??

The bet was fine.  But you"ve found out he likes his raggy ace, and so you have to fold.

If you don"t bet, and he does, you are still in the dark - and you might end up folding to a worse hand (e.g. QQ).  Your bet could also get a raggy ace to fold, as he reads you for AK (for example).

Of course, he could be making a move with air.  If that"s the case, nh wp.

[tonyj444]

The bet was fine.  But you"ve found out he likes his raggy ace, and so you have to fold.

If you don"t bet, and he does, you are still in the dark - and you might end up folding to a worse hand (e.g. QQ).  Your bet could also get a raggy ace to fold, as he reads you for AK (for example).

Of course, he could be making a move with air.  If that"s the case, nh wp.

I disagree.  I don"t think you gain anything by betting.

I certainly don"t think you take him off any A.  How many players will call a raise OOP with a raggy A only to chk/fold to a c-bet on an A-high flop?  I bet there"s not many.

I agree that by checking you do run the risk of folding to a worse hand, but exactly how often do we think this happens?  If he bets into the turn I"m not suggesting we just throw our hand away.  Unless he gives us a good reason to fold (e.g a bet of more than pot) I"d definitely be calling a bet on the turn as weaker hands might be seeing this as a chance to take it down.  Now if they then shove the river it does become difficult to call, but how often does a hand worse than top pair want to get all its chips in when its already met some (albeit very passive) resistance.  I"m not saying it doesn"t happen but I would guesstimate the amount it happens is similar to the amount of time you will be check-raised by a worse hand if you bet this flop.

In response to Swinebag, given that you"ve bet the flop then yes I think a fold is fine.  I think you"re behind more often than not and when you are, you have only 2 outs.  When you"re ahead he will probably have at least 5 outs (assuming he hasn"t done it on air) and more than likely has somewhere between 8 and 13 (-1 if you hold the ).