NO SNOW - 2 a.m. finishes ... Structure!?

[rivertaff]

Hi,

sorry but did not know where to post this question.

According to the live national schedule there are sats for world open 2nite,2moro and Wednesday.

Did question it with Leigh at time of schedule published cos world open not until August but told correct - but i can"t find them on Blue Sq.

Is it me?

[kinboshi]

I think starting earlier on a Sunday might be an issue (not from APAT's side, but from the casino"s).

Playing later on the Saturday makes sense imo, and I can"t comment on the antes - in fact I"d rather let Rich Stevenson do that for me...

[duke3016]

Hi,

sorry but did not know where to post this question.

According to the live national schedule there are sats for world open 2nite,2moro and Wednesday.

Did question it with Leigh at time of schedule published cos world open not until August but told correct - but i can"t find them on Blue Sq.

Is it me?

I blame Dan"s calendar TBH

[kinboshi]

Hi,

sorry but did not know where to post this question.

According to the live national schedule there are sats for world open 2nite,2moro and Wednesday.

Did question it with Leigh at time of schedule published cos world open not until August but told correct - but i can"t find them on Blue Sq.

Is it me?

I blame Dan"s calendar TBH

+1

[WASP]

From the APAT rules, for info.....

 44.  Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision.  If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown.  If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead.  The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-

        1. Tournament Director.
        2. Table Dealer.
        3. Another player participating in that specific hand.

For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.

and APAT were spot in enforcing that rule but in any other tourney you play in the UK clock can be called by anyone at the table and to be fair when antes come in everyone has an interest for time to move on.  I don"t think calling clock can be abused but knowing that you cannot have the clock called on you can be.

[Eck]

Agree with Brian about the calling of the clock.


Even in the early stages when i was still in people were taking a ridiculous time to make decisions preflop, no idea how they manage on the internet   I have no problem with people thinking about a tough decision but how many do you have in a game?

[HaworthBantam]

From the APAT rules, for info.....

 44.  Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision.  If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown.  If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead.  The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-

        1. Tournament Director.
        2. Table Dealer.
        3. Another player participating in that specific hand.

For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.

and APAT were spot in enforcing that rule but in any other tourney you play in the UK clock can be called by anyone at the table and to be fair when antes come in everyone has an interest for time to move on.  I don"t think calling clock can be abused but knowing that you cannot have the clock called on you can be.

The table/dealer/TD would have to careful that equal time was allowed towards the end of a level as at the beginning. I"ve seen it abused by players not in the hand close to the level end.

[duncthehat]

 44.  Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision.  If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown.  If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead.  The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-

        1. Tournament Director.
        2. Table Dealer.
        3. Another player participating in that specific hand.

For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.

[/quote]


Early on in the tournament there was a hand on my table between a couple of players that took forever indeed one player contemplating for just under 5 minutes before raising all in and the other taking a full 5 to make his decision.

although out of the hand both myself and Foggy contemplated asking for the clock.  We both held stum for my part simply because I had taken a few minutes to decide to fold to an all in bet on the turn knowing I had 12 outs almost certainly 15 and possibly 18 only 10 minutes earlier.  The Gambler in me desperately wanted to gamble and run up to nearly 40k if i hit but crippled if missed halfway through level 2 but I chickened out.

Had either of us called the clock I see we would have been in breach of APAT rules which would have been unfortunate.

I think this rule needs to be looked at.  For the record the 2 players involved were  not trying to time waste but feedback does seem to suggest there was a hell of lot of timewasting later when the blinds got serious.

Surely if you are in the tournament the timewasting does affect you whether in the hand or not.

[bigalhx3]

The structure was spot on and no need to be tweaked IMO.  Maybe rulings need to tweaked like "calling clock is not in the APAT spirit" as we had no play in the last level and we wasn"t allowed to call clock when players were tank folding for 5 mins a round.

Also there was a loooooong delay before the final table, for probably over 2 hours, not APAT's fault but people were waiting for food etc.  If we had just had a quick break and started again we"d have been done well before midnight.

You cannot judge a structure on one tourney it needs to be run a few times before you get a fuller picture.

yes it was very bad late on when the button (65k) was tank folding j/9 after 10 mins to a under the gun all in off 28k

[WASP]

The structure was spot on and no need to be tweaked IMO.  Maybe rulings need to tweaked like "calling clock is not in the APAT spirit" as we had no play in the last level and we wasn"t allowed to call clock when players were tank folding for 5 mins a round.

Also there was a loooooong delay before the final table, for probably over 2 hours, not APAT's fault but people were waiting for food etc.  If we had just had a quick break and started again we"d have been done well before midnight.

You cannot judge a structure on one tourney it needs to be run a few times before you get a fuller picture.

yes it was very bad late on when the button (65k) was tank folding j/9 after 10 mins to a under the gun all in off 28k

loooool

[Chipaccrual]

Hi,

sorry but did not know where to post this question.

According to the live national schedule there are sats for world open 2nite,2moro and Wednesday.

Did question it with Leigh at time of schedule published cos world open not until August but told correct - but i can"t find them on Blue Sq.

Is it me?

It was correct, but they are going to be moved by a week due to timing issues.

Keep an eye on the forum for an update.  

[TightEnd]

Hi all


Rest assured we spent a lot of the weekend considering the structure changes, observing etc

For starters it wasn"t possible to start earlier on day One. To be frank the venue itself had severe organisational problems and led to a tense couple of hours pre-event. This may not be the case at every venue, but its a big ask to start earlier in our experience.

At the end of Day One, we stop when players have been playing for 12 hours roughly. Thats a long day for APAT organisers as well as remaining players. This time round 5 mins longer per level plus 500-1000 plus too shallow antes all contributed to 47 coming back. So there is definitely scope to make a few alterations to those factors, rather than going on for longer on day one

Start of day two you typically run into casino staffing issues..dealers, front desk etc that prevents earlier starts

Switching to split dinner breaks is definitely under consideration though

The long break before the final yesterday was most undesirable, and will be triple checked next event to avoid if at all possible

So in summary a few tweakings maybe, but no great change to start/finish timings IMO


Onto time taken to make decisions. The relevant APAT rule has been mentioned, and I myself had to tell the likes of Brian and that table late on day one that you could not call a clock if you aren"t in a hand. It should be noted that the rule is framed like that because there is a tacit understanding that the DEALER will take the lead in calling for a clock if need be. I think though this is over-optimistic as dealers can be inexperienced or intimidated (and that Adam Wilkinson, Armitage, Martin table was lively and not for the faint hearted) and rarely call for a clock in my experience. I could not though go against an APAT rule mid comp, not matter how frustrated everyone was.

So we"ll look at that rule before Cardiff.

[bigalhx3]

think the the structure was perfect there was a combanation of things that made it late
1st was the late start of 20 mins not apat fault that the gramophone did not work but it did saved us from the grandads train stories
second was the slow play from the player late on on day 2 the players fault not the structure
and then the 3rd was the 2hr dinner break before the final table it was just one of them things that happend mix up between players apat and casino
cut these things out and the structure would have been fine and eveyone would have being going home by 12

[Honeybadg]

... good stuff... good to know that the feedback is listened too and taken account of.

Of of interest from the APAT's point of view what is the optimal time for the tournament to end ... I appreciate there will be some +/- in this ... but interested in the thought process.

Cheers

Louis

[waltypies]

... it seems like a crazy time to be finishing on a Sunday night ...

Structure to be tweaked ... if there are 200 runners needs more of a twist I think.

I would be keen to kick antes in quicker ... only way to induce early action with "rocks" getting eaten away.

Various other threads have eluded to the fact this was a one off ... but it looked like a late late finish from very early on.

It must have affected some players needing to get home etc ...

I look forward to thoughts.

Louis

I have not read ANY of the posts below so i am sorry if i may have repeated anything from anybody.

The main reason for the late finishing time was basically the amount of people down to the last 30-40 not being able to play a short stack.  There were no risks taken which should have been taken and no one grabbed the game by the balls one bit.  If someone decided to do that the game would have been over ALOT quicker.

I am not ****ting on anyones play but it really was like watching paint dry the amount of SUPER "tight" play near the end.

However i personally put this down to the standard of tournament poker at the moment.