Thoughts on this Ruling!!!

[stacks]

Hi,

Was playing a game last night at my local club when the following happened and would like your thoughts -

9 handed table, final hand before the break and add on, all tables are dealer dealt

The blinds get posted and there are a few limp callers including the button, small blind makes up and big blind checks.

All players check the flop.

Turn is dealt and it's checked round to the button who bets out (can't remember the amount but is insignificant anyway). Everyone folds apart from the player before the button.

The dealer asks if everyone has folded there is no answer from the player (who hasn't mucked yet).

The dealer then pushed the pot to the player on the button who originally bet who in turn mucks their cards and the dealer proceeds to shuffle the cards and prepare the cards for after the break.

At this point the player who didn't fold says "hold on I haven't folded yet and was going to call"

The TD is asked over and the ruling is made that he should have heard the dealer ask if everyone has folded and said something. As he didn't the hand and pot was awarded to the player on the button.

Hope this makes sense as I'm kind of rubbish at explaining things!!!  

You thoughts would be appreciated.

Jason.

[tumblet]

its a dealer error in my opinion, as long as the player who was left to act had his cards in clear view to the dealer.

Once the cards are mucked though, I cant see any other option than what happened.

[TightEnd]

In my opinion this is an incorrect ruling

It"s the dealers responsibility to ensure that there are no other live hands, and this should be done by sight more than asking all players at the table if they still have cards

Unfortunately the button then mucks his cards. Once they hit the muck his hand is dead and the pot should be awarded to the player before the button who still has cards

If the TD feels the player in the cut off has tried to pull a stroke (ie by deliberately hiding his cards behind his chips or concealing them in any other way) then he can be warned as to future conduct and advised as to penalties on repeat

You say this wasn"t a self deal game? If it wasn"t the dealers are/should be trained (in GC licenced venues) to ascertain what hands are still live without relying on players say so.

[Jon MW]

Dealer error, but

"The dealer then pushed the pot to the player on the button who originally bet who in turn mucks their cards and the dealer proceeds to shuffle the cards and prepare the cards for after the break."

as soon as the dealer starts to push the pot to the button why didn"t he say something?

I know it doesn"t take long to do or for the button to muck and dealer to start shuffling, but coupled with the fact that the player didn"t notice the dealer ask if everyone had folded it suggests that he really should be paying more attention to the game.

He wasn"t listening to an ipod and had shades on did he?

[HaworthBantam]

Dealer error, but

"The dealer then pushed the pot to the player on the button who originally bet who in turn mucks their cards and the dealer proceeds to shuffle the cards and prepare the cards for after the break."

as soon as the dealer starts to push the pot to the button why didn"t he say something?

I know it doesn"t take long to do or for the button to muck and dealer to start shuffling, but coupled with the fact that the player didn"t notice the dealer ask if everyone had folded it suggests that he really should be paying more attention to the game.

He wasn"t listening to an ipod and had shades on did he?

+1

[stacks]

No, no shades or iPOD lol

although I agree and it is partly his fault to not paying attention...

It was a full dealer dealt game and the dealers at this venue are usually very good.

Cheers for you thoughts tho guys

Good luck

Jason

[scouse3465]

It is dealer error but ruling should have stood !
Also it could well be player s fault , there is a lot of players that use there hands as a card protector , this could be the reason why the dealer used sound aswell as sight. why players insist on covering their cards with there hands is beyond me and causes confusion whether it is dealer or another player folding out of turn.

[Jon MW]

It is dealer error but ruling should have stood !
Also it could well be player s fault , there is a lot of players that use there hands as a card protector , this could be the reason why the dealer used sound aswell as sight. why players insist on covering their cards with there hands is beyond me and causes confusion whether it is dealer or another player folding out of turn.

I"ve seen plenty (well one or two) posts concerning dealers mucking cards with card protectors on them.

[linziwan]

It is dealer error but ruling should have stood !
Also it could well be player s fault , there is a lot of players that use there hands as a card protector , this could be the reason why the dealer used sound aswell as sight. why players insist on covering their cards with there hands is beyond me and causes confusion whether it is dealer or another player folding out of turn.

At APAT Cardiff two tables left I raise all in from seat one... everybody folds. Last person (we thought) folded their cards face up. The dealer takes my cards from under the chip protecting them and mucks them. Turns out the BB had still not acted. Although he said he was going to fold we called for a ruling....

TK said that it was dealer error and not mine, but I should still have been paying attention and noticed the BB was still to act. It is the players responsibility to follow the play and watch their own cards. But as it was an APAT event a friendly ruling was that my bet would be a flat call, but the pot would go to the BB.  In another tournament I may have lost my whole stack to the BB.

Now I ALWAYS keep my hands on my cards and ask if the hand is dead.

[scouse3465]

The point i was making is if you hold your hands over the cards they are not visible to the dealer !! or other playres   !!
if you wanted to angle shoot with a marginal hand you can put hands over cards and wait for people behind to fold and then say oh i didnt see!
In my eyes no reason to cover cards with hands thats what card protector are , if dealer mucks your cards with protector on you instantly say and its your pot or hand still live  !
I agree the player should watch but if you in seat 1 and under the gun how can you see if seat 10 has folded !
The dealer is in charge of the table and think thta i poor ruling for you to lose anything imo

[Jon MW]

... if dealer mucks your cards with protector on you instantly say and its your pot or hand still live  

If the dealer mucks your cards they"re dead apart from in some exceptional circumstances or with some exceptionally friendly rulings.

[kinboshi]

If you play poker in a pub, you"re going to get these situations a lot more than in a licensed cardroom.  Even they have more than their fair share of situations caused by vague rules or dealer/TD errors - but you"re better protected than you are in a pub game.

[scouse3465]

... if dealer mucks your cards with protector on you instantly say and its your pot or hand still live  

If the dealer mucks your cards they"re dead apart from in some exceptional circumstances or with some exceptionally friendly rulings.

so why have a card protector ??
that is the point of a card protector to stop dealing mucking hand until hand is finished !! so surely if mucked with card protector on it cannot stand !
Or is it just like when a durex splits !! lol

[Jon MW]

... if dealer mucks your cards with protector on you instantly say and its your pot or hand still live  

If the dealer mucks your cards they"re dead apart from in some exceptional circumstances or with some exceptionally friendly rulings.

so why have a card protector ??
that is the point of a card protector to stop dealing mucking hand until hand is finished !! so surely if mucked with card protector on it cannot stand !
Or is it just like when a durex splits !! lol

If you have a card protector the dealer should notice and not muck your cards.

But if they muck your cards anyway they"re still dead.

[AMRN]

Or is it just like when a durex splits !! lol

yep - both cost you money!!