How bad did I play this ?......eorr, eorrr, eorrrrrrrrr

[BOINGBLITZ]

Ok Guys,

  I would appreciate your opinion on a recent hand that I played in a  live game at Walsall.

 It was a £30 triple-chance freezeout with 3 x 2000 starting chips & we were at the 400/800 level with 24 left from a field of around 60.

  I had been on the same table throughout & had got around 20k in chips. My opponent to my left, a good LAG player, had been next to me all night and had roughly the same stack as me.

 He had raised UTG on 2 occasions and shown A-K both times, once when I showed him my A-J before I folded them. He had also called all-ins with A-10 & K-10 & seemed to get married to any 2 face cards at times.

 On the hand in question, it was folded to me on the SB and I made it 2500 to go with J-J. After a long dwell, he called me.

 The flop came down A-4-Q, not good at all for me. I made a C-bet of 6000 and once again, after a long delay, he called me. This convinced me that he had 2 face cards, though certainly not A-K. A-10, K-10 or K-Q were the most likely combinations in my opinion, but when a 2nd A came on the turn, I was convinced that A-10 was no longer one of his possible holdings .

 I bet 5000, leaving me 7k behind but he instantly moved all-in. I was now convinced that he had K-Q so although I was getting nearly 5-1 in calling my 7k to win 34k, I would be drawing to just 2 cards.

 Now I know that people say "You have the odds...you must call" but = I dont always subscribe to that. Why call if I believe I am a 95% dog to win the
hand ?   I made a similar lay-down in the recent online Welsh Open tourney and that paid off.


 Anyway, I folded.....and was gutted when he showed K-J.....the ONLY combination of face cards That I hadnt put him on !

 I was right that he didnt have an ace, but wrong in my assessment of what he DID hold.

 Your assessment of my play.....and how YOU would have played this hand, would be much appreciated guys.

[George2Loose]

Far too spewy imo. You should bet less on flop and check fold turn

[hi_am_chris]

Agree with george that a smaller c bet on the flop will get you the same information as your pot sized bet. Think you probably have to shut down on the turn and evaluate after he bets or checks. If you bet the turn you turn your hand into a bluff and because the ace pairs id be doubtful that you get any queens to fold.

[AMRN]

he didn"t beat with his cards here..... he just used position to outplay you. JJ out of position is a difficult hand to play..... treat it like a small pair rather than a premium hand when oop. Limp or small raise, then check/fold if the flop gives overcards.

[Honeybadg]

Why did you raise so little pre-flop?

Do you want a caller?

If you want a caller you almost have to throw it away on the flop.

This time he holds KJ but lots of other times he will hold things which crush you ...

L

[George2Loose]

he didn"t beat with his cards here..... he just used position to outplay you. JJ out of position is a difficult hand to play..... treat it like a small pair rather than a premium hand when oop. Limp or small raise, then check/fold if the flop gives overcards.

I disagree with this tbh- he played it worse than you probably thought you were "blagging" (find this in common pub players who always think that people who play poker are bluffing)

Once you bet the flop he should fold or move in given effective stack sizes

[AMRN]

Once you bet the flop he should fold or move in given effective stack sizes

Do you never call preflop when you have position knowing that you will call a c-bet with any two cards, ie float the flop, then see if the c-bettor is willing to fire again on the turn.... a check on the turn from the c-bettor is often a sign of weakness that can be exploited.  [Clearly if he fires again perhaps you should become a believer and fold.]

Dependant on how deep the stacks are, I think position against a preflop raise is often far more powerful than having a decent hand, and of course it comes along a lot more often than a premium hand.

Calling a preflop raise in position, but then auto-folding to the c-bet is just too weak....... and in reality George, I don"t believe you would ever play that weak.

[BOINGBLITZ]

The replies I expected from people whose views I respect too !
I thought I played it badly too !!

[George2Loose]

Once you bet the flop he should fold or move in given effective stack sizes

Do you never call preflop when you have position knowing that you will call a c-bet with any two cards, ie float the flop, then see if the c-bettor is willing to fire again on the turn.... a check on the turn from the c-bettor is often a sign of weakness that can be exploited.  [Clearly if he fires again perhaps you should become a believer and fold.]

Dependant on how deep the stacks are, I think position against a preflop raise is often far more powerful than having a decent hand, and of course it comes along a lot more often than a premium hand.

Calling a preflop raise in position, but then auto-folding to the c-bet is just too weak....... and in reality George, I don"t believe you would ever play that weak.

Steve I absoloutely agree with you- folding to a c-bet when you"ve missed isn"t always part of the plan. However I just don"t think BOING is deep enough here to mess about.

The problem in this scenario is that BOING will shove the turn A LOT of the time post flop or turn. When stack sizes are deeper than, yep use position here but otherwise fold/push pre. Anything else is just very spewy.

And I really don"t believe his opponenet used position on him. Maybe I"m being a bit patronising but the way BOING has described it he probs thought "I have KJ I can"t fold". I"m sure had the raise been from UTG and he was OOP with a marginal hand he"d still probably call.

[BOINGBLITZ]

George.....have you checked your personal messages ??......only I haven"t had a reply from you yet.

[noble1]

as played a smaller c-bet is best then considering your read on opponent the turn should be checked...folding if opponent bets out [read dependent]

if you bet less pre and on the flop 1/3 ish to 1/2 pot then a check raise all in on the turn may well work if you believe your read on villain is correct.. just try to be aware of your and opponent stack sizes/styles and skill level before choosing the best way to approach a situation. [Think about how you size your bets and how it will affect future bets/actions]

as said in above replies floating is a possibility but you hope for a check on the turn or river before you ship your chips in not when your opponent double barrels [with these size stacks/bet sizes]!!

Once you bet the flop he should fold or move in given effective stack sizes

think about what has been written here....opponent is not using position very well..

[bigredders]

i agree with whats been said already...tbh if you raise so small preflop then that puts you in trouble as you may think he would be calling light which widens up his range. when it comes 2 overcards it hits so much of his range you just have to let it go.

i do agree with the pot odds comment though. It is a personal gripe of mine of poker players that dont evaluate pot odds properly at 5-1 pot odds you need a 20% chance of winning so the fold was the right play, although you shouldn"t have been in the position in the first place

[deanp27]

i"d be tempted to c/c flop when i am out of position.

you can"t bet twice and fold here with stack sizes.