Righ thing? Wrong Thing?

[noble1]

Fascinating how most perceive the opponents hand range here........
All i will i say is if you flop a flush in a similar situation to this against players who think like you ,then would a over bet of the pot be the best line? most would not put you on a flush..

agreed but may only work if your opponent has flopped a set.....

or top pair or an over pair or 2 pair or a straight

So we See a flop 3 Way with a pot of 9600, flop is     jh qh

[Honeybadg]

I don"t want to fold JJ having bet 6,000 but there are hands I want to chase away ... KQ and weak aces etc ...

You have the 4th stronger hand - so protect it.

The BB is active so what are you going to do when he re-raises you to 10k with KQ, or some Ace.

I don"t think he is going to re-raise to 18k with these hands.

I like raising a standard amount - but JJ and TT they are just so vulnerable (even with position) and hard to throw away.

You want him in the hand ... fair enough ... but it is dangerous ...

Once you are in the hand for 3000 ... tough not to call ... but I wouldn"t be surprised if he had a baby flush or something with two draws ... so you are not a massive favourite ... button is only going to call with a flush (or QQ - or 9T - hard to see QQ) ... so no extra value there.

I guess we will agree to differ on this one ...

L

[deanp27]

you have JJ and you want to chase away ace rag?

in general principles, the bigger you bet the less likely you are to get called by hands you crush and more likely to only get called when beat.

make standard raises and from then on just trust your post flop play, usually you will have position if you are getting called from the blinds.

as an extreme example, if you don"t want callers when you raise then just open shove. Job done.

i really do think you should open the same whether you have JJ, AK, AA, KK, 56s, 22 or whatever - but i guess it depends on your style of play.

[noble1]

I don"t want to fold JJ having bet 6,000 but there are hands I want to chase away ... KQ and weak aces etc ...

You have the 4th stronger hand - so protect it.

The BB is active so what are you going to do when he re-raises you to 10k with KQ, or some Ace.

I don"t think he is going to re-raise to 18k with these hands.

I like raising a standard amount - but JJ and TT they are just so vulnerable (even with position) and hard to throw away.

You want him in the hand ... fair enough ... but it is dangerous ...

Once you are in the hand for 3000 ... tough not to call ... but I wouldn"t be surprised if he had a baby flush or something with two draws ... so you are not a massive favourite ... button is only going to call with a flush (or QQ - or 9T - hard to see QQ) ... so no extra value there.

I guess we will agree to differ on this one ...

L

i can see your logic in thinking this but just try to expand your thoughts on this a wee bit...watch the replays of the poker million final table for instance and see how much they raise by... [open up a mtt and watch the better mtt online players and see there bet sizing]
The std and type of opponents you are up against are key here,if for some reason you find you are getting to many callers when you raise [be it they are loose or your own image is spewy] then raising more pre would be fine as long as you don"t raise to often and do it with crap...
.

[Honeybadg]

I don"t want to fold JJ having bet 6,000 but there are hands I want to chase away ... KQ and weak aces etc ...

You have the 4th stronger hand - so protect it.

The BB is active so what are you going to do when he re-raises you to 10k with KQ, or some Ace.

I don"t think he is going to re-raise to 18k with these hands.

I like raising a standard amount - but JJ and TT they are just so vulnerable (even with position) and hard to throw away.

You want him in the hand ... fair enough ... but it is dangerous ...

Once you are in the hand for 3000 ... tough not to call ... but I wouldn"t be surprised if he had a baby flush or something with two draws ... so you are not a massive favourite ... button is only going to call with a flush (or QQ - or 9T - hard to see QQ) ... so no extra value there.

I guess we will agree to differ on this one ...

L

i can see your logic in thinking this but just try to expand your thoughts on this a wee bit...watch the replays of the poker million final table for instance and see how much they raise by... [open up a mtt and watch the better mtt online players and see there bet sizing]
The std and type of opponents you are up against are key here,if for some reason you find you are getting to many callers when you raise [be it they are loose or your own image is spewy] then raising more pre would be fine as long as you don"t raise to often and do it with crap...
.

I think there is a difference in the way the Poker Million final table is played out and a $20k freeze-out ... I don"t think you can transpose the betting structure directly ... usually the players are deeper once you get to the Poker Million final table ... I have watched quite a few.

L

[Honeybadg]

you have JJ and you want to chase away ace rag?

in general principles, the bigger you bet the less likely you are to get called by hands you crush and more likely to only get called when beat.

make standard raises and from then on just trust your post flop play, usually you will have position if you are getting called from the blinds.

as an extreme example, if you don"t want callers when you raise then just open shove. Job done.

i really do think you should open the same whether you have JJ, AK, AA, KK, 56s, 22 or whatever - but i guess it depends on your style of play.

I don"t want to chase away the Ace-rag per se ... I want rid of all the Ace, King and Queen hands that will make it tricky to play post flop.

[rubertoe]

Let me Put you out of Your Misery Guys!!

Of Course I call - If he flopped a flush in BB good luck to him - i ain"t folding a set here - i am playing FTW!!!

The reason i raise to 3k here is because i want my raises consistent - all through the tourney i have raised 2.5-3x so i am definitely not starting to open to 5x!!! and like people have said - i want the action i have a premium PP!!!

Anyway - the Button is irrelevant here and plays no further part in the action!!

As i said - I call - BB flips up  ah qc and rivers the flush.... but i am glad i got the money in as a 68% favourite and i am never folding a set here.

[Honeybadg]

... fair play ...

Here is related question - what % would you need to be happy to call in this tournament situation.

Aside - if you raise to 6000 the villain is very likely to call anyway ...

Unlucky.

L

[noble1]

I don"t want to fold JJ having bet 6,000 but there are hands I want to chase away ... KQ and weak aces etc ...

You have the 4th stronger hand - so protect it.

The BB is active so what are you going to do when he re-raises you to 10k with KQ, or some Ace.

I don"t think he is going to re-raise to 18k with these hands.

I like raising a standard amount - but JJ and TT they are just so vulnerable (even with position) and hard to throw away.

You want him in the hand ... fair enough ... but it is dangerous ...

Once you are in the hand for 3000 ... tough not to call ... but I wouldn"t be surprised if he had a baby flush or something with two draws ... so you are not a massive favourite ... button is only going to call with a flush (or QQ - or 9T - hard to see QQ) ... so no extra value there.

I guess we will agree to differ on this one ...

L

i can see your logic in thinking this but just try to expand your thoughts on this a wee bit...watch the replays of the poker million final table for instance and see how much they raise by... [open up a mtt and watch the better mtt online players and see there bet sizing]
The std and type of opponents you are up against are key here,if for some reason you find you are getting to many callers when you raise [be it they are loose or your own image is spewy] then raising more pre would be fine as long as you don"t raise to often and do it with crap...
.

I think there is a difference in the way the Poker Million final table is played out and a $20k freeze-out ... I don"t think you can transpose the betting structure directly ... usually the players are deeper once you get to the Poker Million final table ... I have watched quite a few.

L

is that what u think ?

$10 mtt 2008 100,000 gtd [now the 250,000 gtd on Sundays] 20,000 entrants - i"d suggest u watch this all the way through...There are things to learn or even add to your own repertoire ......

not sure if it works for non-pxf subscribers but it is free to join for limited access [then log in and you can definitely watch]

http://www.pokerxfactor.com/HH118395/4477_20080303_140746

the final table it self begins at hand 389 .....

[duke3016]

Definite call for me (Maybe a bigger pre though - but thats me  ) -- well thats me tagged -- see you in Cardiff

[Honeybadg]

I don"t want to fold JJ having bet 6,000 but there are hands I want to chase away ... KQ and weak aces etc ...

You have the 4th stronger hand - so protect it.

The BB is active so what are you going to do when he re-raises you to 10k with KQ, or some Ace.

I don"t think he is going to re-raise to 18k with these hands.

I like raising a standard amount - but JJ and TT they are just so vulnerable (even with position) and hard to throw away.

You want him in the hand ... fair enough ... but it is dangerous ...

Once you are in the hand for 3000 ... tough not to call ... but I wouldn"t be surprised if he had a baby flush or something with two draws ... so you are not a massive favourite ... button is only going to call with a flush (or QQ - or 9T - hard to see QQ) ... so no extra value there.

I guess we will agree to differ on this one ...

L

i can see your logic in thinking this but just try to expand your thoughts on this a wee bit...watch the replays of the poker million final table for instance and see how much they raise by... [open up a mtt and watch the better mtt online players and see there bet sizing]
The std and type of opponents you are up against are key here,if for some reason you find you are getting to many callers when you raise [be it they are loose or your own image is spewy] then raising more pre would be fine as long as you don"t raise to often and do it with crap...
.

I think there is a difference in the way the Poker Million final table is played out and a $20k freeze-out ... I don"t think you can transpose the betting structure directly ... usually the players are deeper once you get to the Poker Million final table ... I have watched quite a few.

L

is that what u think ?

$10 mtt 2008 100,000 gtd [now the 250,000 gtd on Sundays] 20,000 entrants - i"d suggest u watch this all the way through...There are things to learn or even add to your own repertoire ......

not sure if it works for non-pxf subscribers but it is free to join for limited access [then log in and you can definitely watch]

http://www.pokerxfactor.com/HH118395/4477_20080303_140746

the final table it self begins at hand 389 .....

I will have a look at this at some point ... I think about the Jacks and Tens a lot ... because I think they are the hands which are hard to play ... and I think some of the normal "rules" of play don"t quite work especially if you are mid stacked or the blinds are about to start biting.

I like the over-raise because you gain more info as to where you are maybe 6000 is too much ... maybe 4800 ... in the original hand posted ... I guess that I am going to call in the end ... but the thought process is more driven on how to get away from awkward spots when you really don"t need the hassle ... usually a lot of prize money difference between hitting 7th and waiting for a chance to finish on the podium ... in the poker million often a chop soon after so staying alive is very worth it. I think staying alive is often the dominant factor.

I posted a hand about the Jacks which ultimately killed me in the 2.5m g"tee (fairly near the money) a few weeks ago ... and the consensus was broadly to three bet an early raiser ... I had called ... upon reflection in that circumstance I think the fold is pretty valid (because it keeps you alive) ...

The final table of the $2.5m g"tee was very interesting in that the play was pretty extreme ... not the patience of the Poker Million final table (but I guess a chop was not an option). Plays were made that meant a player took 7th for $55k when they could have almost sat an watched to c$200k (3rd place)

I totally accept the go for the win thought process ... but quite often you would find yourself only about 60/40 ahead and that is a pretty thin margin for your tournament life when you could be 100% and some free chips ...

In the original hand ... if re-raised are people going to throw the Jacks away pre-flop? Or are they going to argue there is so little that beats them they have to call?

Of course I am setting myself up to be bullied off hands ... but there are definite times when big folds have got me to final tables ... and going with the "pot odds" has killed me just before the carnage began ... I don"t think the answer is so clear cut ... but that is what makes the game fun ...

I am pretty relaxed about people trying to push me off things ... there are times when I call and times when I let it go ... my main tournament issues are ...

1. Winning a race at the end!
2. Avoiding auto playing hands like AK vs QQ in the blinds ... which I lose either way.
3. Stopping myself limping when out of position.

The first two are just the volatility we accept ... the 3rd one should be easy to solve by putting on a strait-jacket when I am in early positions ...

Enjoying the discussion.

Louis

[deanp27]

if you are 5xBB pocket jacks then are you 5xBB pocket aces? I think you should only ever make it 5bb if table is full of stations and you want more value (ie it has become the standard raise)

of course Jacks can be hard to play, but if you bloat the pot preflop you have fewer options postflop (irrelevant to the hand in the OP). You need to trust your postflop play.

i doubt you get that much more information from your opposition by raising 5xbb as opposed to 3xbb. However if you overraise vulnerable hands and minraise monsters (extreme example) then they already have information on your holding before they have put a chip in the pot.

The amount of times i play live and see people 5x UTG(or bigger) when they normally open smaller and 90% of the time they have /JJ/AK and proudly show it when everyone folds.

anyway thats my view on opening the betting...


as for the hand in question - nh wp ul sir, get him next time.

[Honeybadg]

if you are 5xBB pocket jacks then are you 5xBB pocket aces? I think you should only ever make it 5bb if table is full of stations and you want more value (ie it has become the standard raise)

of course Jacks can be hard to play, but if you bloat the pot preflop you have fewer options postflop (irrelevant to the hand in the OP). You need to trust your postflop play.

i doubt you get that much more information from your opposition by raising 5xbb as opposed to 3xbb. However if you overraise vulnerable hands and minraise monsters (extreme example) then they already have information on your holding before they have put a chip in the pot.

The amount of times i play live and see people 5x UTG(or bigger) when they normally open smaller and 90% of the time they have /JJ/AK and proudly show it when everyone folds.

anyway thats my view on opening the betting...


as for the hand in question - nh wp ul sir, get him next time.

I would be fairly likely to raise 5*BB with AA ... as it looks like JJ ... and will encourage people with AK and AQ to go all in for a perceived race ... I think the last time I had AA at a final table was in the UK Online champs ... cracked by KJs ... (they pushed)

I might also limp with AA ... obvious dangers ... but if the BB is very active a good chance to trap ...

Against an active player ... he is always going to bet at the pot ... what are you going to fold to in this circumstance?

L

[rubertoe]

the way i see it - is that it is all about being consistent

2.5x raise with AA or air - it has to be the same or you will become predictable!! no point opening for say 5x from utg - 4x mp - 3x late position - it is to obvious -

by keeping the opening raises consistent makes it harder put you on a range - esp if you win back to back pots say with 5-2 and then QQ with opre flop 3x raises and show them - every time you 3x raise they wont know if you have it or complete trash


Glad i created some debate??

What would people normall open rasie to 2.5x, 3x, or more!

[AMRN]

What would people normall open rasie to 2.5x, 3x, or more!

Interesting question, and I don"t believe there is a one size fits all answer. So many variables that dictate the right response.... ie your table image, general fishyness/tightness of table, blinds size to stack ratio around the table, antes or no antes, size of antes compared to SB, etc etc etc