Righ thing? Wrong Thing?

[noble1]

it is interesting how some players view there hand strength to how much they should raise...as is trying to put some1 on a range judged by there pre-flop raise...really imo player style/skill and position should be the factors in judging there pre-flop range , post flop and the turn betting/actions/previous hands played are the areas to narrow opponents holdings further imo...

What would people normall open rasie to 2.5x, 3x, or more!

Interesting question, and I don"t believe there is a one size fits all answer. So many variables that dictate the right response.... ie your table image, general fishyness/tightness of table, blinds size to stack ratio around the table, antes or no antes, size of antes compared to SB, etc etc etc

agreed good reply - online in the early levels my std raise would be 3x plus 1bb for every limper but i play very taggy early mostly..if i"m in lag mode early then i alternate 2.5x to 3x but always try to be aware of my position in the hand on any callers and above all else make there life a misery   as a rule i never call a raise it is fold or re-raise for me or be the initial raiser.. i do mix in calls [but mainly mid to late stages] but only if i think i can get paid off big if i hit or there is an opportunity to bluff my opponents in position...

[THEGUY84]

I agree, I tend to only determin my raise size by seeing how oppenents are playing, stack size, blinds etc and also I think Its good to look at what size of raises get through on sertain players, weather LAG or tights. But I would say im a big advocator or keeping my raises the same no matter my holdings.

I also think it important to try not give yourself tough deccisons post flop and this can be controlled through ur pre flop play, I have recently tried not to have to many tough decisions and I would say that it help u get deeper in large online feilds. But saying that you will always have some tought decisions.

You must be able to fold big hand, even if your at final table and you playing for the win. You cant win if you loose all your chips thats for sure,! p.s i dont think I would fold trip there.

[George2Loose]

U should be 2.5xing after antes usually kick in.

Anything else is way too spewy

[AMRN]

U should be 2.5xing after antes usually kick in.

Anything else is way too spewy

Interesting theory - I tend to go the other way, and when the antes kick in, particularly if they are large antes, I increase my raises a little.  Consider that at a full ring table with antes that are 1:4 to the SB, there are effectively 2.5xBB in the pot before any action.... a 2.5xBB gives everyone reasonable odds (2:1) to call with any two cards, particularly as they have position on you. If it folds round to the BB, he cannot fold for 1.5xBB more into a pot of 5xBB - but at least you have position on him.

I guess it depends if you want action, or are just trying to take down the blinds/antes. If you"re only playing premium hands and action is what you want, then 2.5xBB raise here is good..... but if you"re on a stealing rampage, surely you need to pay just a little more to take away the pot odds for anyone behind who fancies seeing a flop with their marginal hands.

[deanp27]

U should be 2.5xing after antes usually kick in.

Anything else is way too spewy

Interesting theory - I tend to go the other way, and when the antes kick in, particularly if they are large antes, I increase my raises a little.  Consider that at a full ring table with antes that are 1:4 to the SB, there are effectively 2.5xBB in the pot before any action.... a 2.5xBB gives everyone reasonable odds (2:1) to call with any two cards, particularly as they have position on you. If it folds round to the BB, he cannot fold for 1.5xBB more into a pot of 5xBB - but at least you have position on him.

I guess it depends if you want action, or are just trying to take down the blinds/antes. If you"re only playing premium hands and action is what you want, then 2.5xBB raise here is good..... but if you"re on a stealing rampage, surely you need to pay just a little more to take away the pot odds for anyone behind who fancies seeing a flop with their marginal hands.

to be honest i think you have your thinking the wrong way round. Raising smaller enables you to steal more often. If you are raise/folding then why would you raise bigger?

we want people to call with  marginal hands OOP, as in the long run we should be able to take more pots.

I guess if you are just a player who never steals and raises with top 5-10% of hands, then you may as well raise a bit larger for value - but that is no fun at all.

[noble1]

gap theory , players know that 1 mistake can bust them or cripple them when the antes kick in , there are few deep stacks unlike the beginning of the mtt,the only ones priced in to call are the blinds but then they"ll be out of position.
But by loosening up your initial hand range in the latter stages and with smaller raises you cut down your losses if you happen to lose a pot...In other words, by making smaller raises preflop, I lose fewer chips when I ultimately lose a hand.
Mostly a lot of players tighten up in mid lat stages when the antes kick in , so steal steal steal is my main objective...
I think as a whole a lot of players get there strategy wrong by playing loose early and tighter later , imo it should be the other way round...........

[rubertoe]

I tend to agree with Noble - Tight early - loose later!! Steal steal steal - with 2.5x raises So what if the Blinds are getting good prices we want them In OOP!! also by commiting to a smaller raise it is cheaper for me to fold to 3-bets and in the long term 2.5x is more profitible than a 3x raise!!

People will generally fold to a 2.5x raise as they would a 3x 4x - So by comitting few chips it is more profitible long term!

[AMRN]

This is ok as a theory, but one of the variables I mentioned was the general tightness/fishyness of the table. If you are at a table of deepstacks who all want to call for value, you will find yourself giving up on the flop too many times..... hence 2.5xBB in this situation is often spewy. If table is prone to folding to any activity, then of course 2.5x is as good as 3x or 4x..... but as I said in my earlier post, there is no "one size fits all" method for preflop bet sizing.

[noble1]

i agree mostly with your thoughts on this AMRN in early stages of a mtt...All i did was try to expand on the idea that raising 3x or more when the antes kick in is not the best strategy..generally there are few deep stacks left at this stage who can take advantage of calling..
In the mid to late stages of a mtt my approach was a standard, tight-aggressive strategy but as i gained more experience and my reading of situations/players got better i started to play a looser more unorthodox style if i was up against tougher players in the higher buy in mtts...Even in low buy in mtt or a mtt with a lot of weak players i will adapt to the dynamics of the table but even in these when the antes/blinds are high compared to stack sizes they tend to limp in and not raise [or spewy high raises or all ins lol ]..if you change this dynamic by making small 2.2 to 2.5 raises they tend to tighten up and mostly only 2 or 3 players will see the flop if you are called...now you use your experience [your advantage over the weaker players] but also you will be surprised by how often that you get the blinds and antes without any opposition...Steady constant pressure , gearing up then slowing down when you sense the table cottoning on to what you are doing,then repeat after a orbit or 2 of inactivity  lol lol sounds like a recipe  
The whole theory is that you have a lot to gain when the the blinds/antes are high but on the flip side you lose more by not winning...

This is a big subject with a lot detail/situations/dynamics to be discussed in one thread..wowser you could write a book on it with all the different approaches that players take when the antes are large...but the crux of the thing imo is about a lot of the time a hell of a lot of players naturally go along with the flow of the table without trying to exploit it or are to slow/late to react , there continuation bets are to large , there post flop bet sizing to large and 3 betting to much with big hands.... just my current opinion which i"d love to discuss further if anyone is interested....

[deanp27]

back to the original hand i think the villain played his hand very odd. he has virtually flopped the nuts for his hand TPTK+NFD, and really should CRAI. The way he played it he only gets called by huge hands(like sets, flushes).

with those hands on that flop someone is going broke anyway imo

[Honeybadg]

Fascinating how most perceive the opponents hand range here........
All i will i say is if you flop a flush in a similar situation to this against players who think like you ,then would a over bet of the pot be the best line? most would not put you on a flush..

I think if you have flopped the baby flush then the all in is a great move ... you will often get paid ... and you should get rid of the high hearts that you fear.

[rubertoe]

back to the original hand i think the villain played his hand very odd. he has virtually flopped the nuts for his hand TPTK+NFD, and really should CRAI. The way he played it he only gets called by huge hands(like sets, flushes).

with those hands on that flop someone is going broke anyway imo

Usually me!!