Live Hand

[Chipaccrual]

£50 Freezeout live tournament.

Blinds 200/400
Average Stack Size = 6.5k

Both Players playing off around 9.5k stack


Player B, UTG raises to 1200.

Player A (UTG +1), holding    kc , raises to 3600.

Folds back round to player B, who ponders, then reraises all-in.

So, it" s back to Player A......................


No real reads on Player B, joined table fifteen minutes previous, chatty, but only limped into one hand.


What does player A do, and what has player B got ?

Okay, so Player A makes the call.

Player A =   kc

Player B =  kh ks


An ace drops on the flop and Player A just has Player B covered and Player B exits the tourney.


What"s your thoughts on both players line in this hands ?

[mal666]

Standard

[AMRN]

lol at all those who raise fold!!!

You either flat or three bet/call a shove.

Personally with the £50 structure at DTD deffp 3 bet/call a shove

I don"t think I advocated raise/fold - I said that as played it was a fold, but that I wouldn"t have 3-bet in the first place against an unknown early position raiser.

As per Noble"s post have a plan when reraising, and if the plan is to call a shove, then surely the better move is to shove yourself and put the decision on the other guy to call for his tourney.  Of course in this case with KK, it"s kind of irrelevant, but if he had a lesser pair, say JJ, he may well fold the best hand.

[George2Loose]

Problem with open shoving Steve is that unless he is very bad he"s almost never calling off with worse.

3 betting here is to hopefully getting him to shove with the lower end of his range.

Also means that if we want to 3 bet bluff in future we have to risk our entire stack

[noble1]

lol at all those who raise fold!!!

You either flat or three bet/call a shove.

Personally with the £50 structure at DTD deffp 3 bet/call a shove

I don"t think I advocated raise/fold - I said that as played it was a fold, but that I wouldn"t have 3-bet in the first place against an unknown early position raiser.

As per Noble"s post have a plan when reraising, and if the plan is to call a shove, then surely the better move is to shove yourself and put the decision on the other guy to call for his tourney.  Of course in this case with KK, it"s kind of irrelevant, but if he had a lesser pair, say JJ, he may well fold the best hand.

Problem with open shoving Steve is that unless he is very bad he"s almost never calling off with worse.

3 betting here is to hopefully getting him to shove with the lower end of his range.

Also means that if we want to 3 bet bluff in future we have to risk our entire stack

i,m ok with both - shove or 3bet...i think we should mix our strong hand lines with shoves and 3bets , although more weighted towards 3 betting...

[deanp27]

standard - nh gg wp etc

[Marty719]

Problem with open shoving Steve is that unless he is very bad he"s almost never calling off with worse.

3 betting here is to hopefully getting him to shove with the lower end of his range.

Also means that if we want to 3 bet bluff in future we have to risk our entire stack

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this

Shoving just gives him the opportunity to get away from lesser hands.  U always want to give ur opponent imaginary fold equity when u have a hand so he can push w/ a wider range and get it in light a good percentage of the time.  I think his reshoving range here is prob 99+ and AQ+, but as stated, due to no previous reads then the range could be even wider.

[kinboshi]

[Marty719]

I would flat pre here (most of the time), but shoving is also good.  The reason being you can also do it with ATC (although you might want to reduce the range a little) if it means people are going to fold most of their hands.  So the shove is effectively turning AK into a bluff - but against anything other than AA or KK, you"re either a big favourite or small underdog if you are called.  So it"s a "safe" bluff.

Remember we have players behind us as well.  Prob not advisable w/ atc, or to do this as a bluff.  We are literally value raising this spot if we r raising (tho I still agree tht against a blank canvas utg then f/c"n is the better option).  Also...I don"t think u r getting value from hands u have in bad shape w/ the shove whereas u r giving them rope w/ the r/r.

[noble1]

calling is ok if we were deeper imo but when in low 20bb"s area the only reason we have to call is to hope for a rr from behind so that we can get em in..
If no callers we will miss the flop 2/3"s of the time and villain may well c-bet ............. as long as we have a plan for this beforehand to call/bet + be committed if we miss no matter what... then ok"ish

Also...I don"t think u r getting value from hands u have in bad shape w/ the shove whereas u r giving them rope w/ the r/r.

my logic can be a bit srewey sometimes but how do we know that if we miss or hit the flop with top pair that we will get any value without knowing villains style or range?
Our stack size / size of pot imo does not allow for much maneuver so the only way imo to extract anything here is to re-raise and call any shove - if he only flats then no matter the action on the flop we are committed to a showdown or taking the pot down.. or shove pre - which is not only going to get action from better hands that is very dependent on our image and how villains behind perceive it as well as how big there stacks are..the re-raise/shove imo is as you put it more +ev in long term/big picture/future hands...

Being fundamentally sound and playing str8 forward is all well and good but only gets you so far..but every now and again you need to break away from our own and others std school of thought and do the opposite.. much like the theory ""everyone is playing tight so we play loose"" ...

[Chipaccrual]

All very interesting theories guys.  Much appreciate you responses.

Just to fill in the missing bit of info.


Player A = The guy that chopped heads up with Neil

Player B = Me


I was a bit miffed about the hand, and most of the table were shocked about him making the call after my all-in.  Actually, it was an insta-call.

When the ace hit, he was quite vocal and a bit of fist-pumping was seen.  That didn"t help my post tourney mood, but actually he was a decent guy and played well.  Had his tourney life on the line twice and got lucky, but you need that to win any of these tournaments ( See Neil"s Jacks hand if you want proof   , although he had both players covered)

Great weekend at DTD.  Out hand on the Friday was Aces, out hand on the Saturday was Kings.  Got to be careful what I wish for in future.  

[noble1]

ul sir pretty much 2 strong hands in a scenario given the stack sizes where all the chips are inevitably going in. slim chance if he knew how tight u were that he would fold especially live if u had any obvious tells like a huge grin or rubbing your hands with glee lol lol  

out of interest chip after your ponder did you peek at your cards again before re-raising all in?  

[lukybugur]

out of interest chip after your ponder did you peek at your cards again before re-raising all in?  

He didn"t. He insta-shoved and was insta-called.

[noble1]

quote author=Chipaccrual
Folds back round to player B, who ponders, then reraises all-in.