AJ - what's the play?

[deanp27]

folding>>>>>>>>>>>>limping

[Chipaccrual]

I feel I should justify my comments to Neil of "Terrible Play" and "Your a muppet"    

We"ve played quite a few of these between us, and discuss strategies for them on a regular basis.  A lot of the time we play, the numbers registered means that there are two seats available on the final table and a bit of minor cash.

In this particular game, there were 3 seats available and $18 for 4th place.  Neil had already got through an initial table of 7 players to get to this point.

The table started off quite cagey, but then everyone seemed to be in a hurry to make moves, and three players were eliminated fairly quickly.  At this point, Neil has hardly played any hands.  Lost minimum with Q8 v Q6 on a xxQ6Q board.  wp sir.

So, we get to this particular hand.  UTG  A J.

Blinds are 50/100

Stack sizes are

4300 - BB
4285
1915
1595
1060 - Neil
965
880 - SB

So, the raise to 300 (30% of his stack) with AJ is clearly asking a question.  IMO, it"s a shove or fold move really, but in shoving, what do you actually want to happen ?

Someone to call with an under pair and you"re racing ?
And ace rag caller, and you dominate ?

Not likely to happen, my thoughts would be that by shoving, you are only ever going to get called by a hand thats beating you, or you pick up the blinds, which at this level is hardly worth the risk.

I quite like Neil"s play with the raise.  He"s got a hand and is testing the water.

The reraise from the other player though should answer the question he has asked.

We very quickly discussed it on Live Messenger.

My comment was, at best you are racing, but more likely you are dominated or have one overcard to a pocket pair.

A fold at this point, still leaves you with 760 chips with blinds at 50/100.  Enough opportunities to make another move and double up.

I"m not suggesting that the fold after the reraise is always the correct move, but when you look at the full circumstances, previous play, stack sizes, payout structure, then it is the right move here.

The funny thing is, it was only last week that Neil was quite rightly having a go at me for wanting to get my chips in and racing to much.  

The "muppet" comment was a little tongue in cheek, as I was more annoyed for him because I think he could outplay the guys on the table and coudl have got away from that hand in that situation.  As he said, after we spoke briefly during the hand, I sat there assuming he was folding it.

My first comment back to him was "What did you do that for ?"    

[kinboshi]

I feel I should justify my comments to Neil of "Terrible Play" and "Your a muppet"    

I think he did that with his play.

[AMRN]

I can"t understand an open raise for a third of your stack if not prepared to follow through with the rest. Either open with a shove, or fold. No point making standard raise - just gives the others at the table a chance to take it away from you.

[kinboshi]

You mangled it.

FYP

[lukybugur]

You mangled it.

I know. Thank You! My point was to find out if others agreed that the 300 raise was worse than the call. Now that we have established that, I have told-you-so"d and nah,nah,nah-nah,nah"d Leigh. This thread can now be closed

[Chipaccrual]

You mangled it.

I know. Thank You! My point was to find out if others agreed that the 300 raise was worse than the call. Now that we have established that, I have told-you-so"d and nah,nah,nah-nah,nah"d Leigh. This thread can now be closed

Ahhhhhhhhhh, so there was a point to this thread.

Glad we"ve established that.  

[Swinebag]

Only just seen this

With only 3 seats available and 7 players left, you will need to win a hand or two here. I"m shoving in this spot. I"m not overly happy about it being UTG but the blinds are about to go through us and AJ is a decent enough hand that can play well against some calling ranges. some players may call off with pairs TT or smaller or even worse Aces. You aren"t that far behind dominating aces or overpairs (unless you run into AA or JJ)

as for the way it played out....I dont think you can raise 30% of your stack and fold and then have the blinds go through you. next thing the blinds are 75/150 and you have 4BBs and are not going to steal much with that..

[SirPercival]

I know what I would do with AJ  

[lukybugur]

Shove and then spend the next 4 years moaning about how you never win with it ... ?

[SirPercival]

Shove and then spend the next 4 years moaning about how you never win with it ... ?

yip..

I might try the nosey-p slowplay method though.

[noble1]

Only just seen this

With only 3 seats available and 7 players left, you will need to win a hand or two here. I"m shoving in this spot. I"m not overly happy about it being UTG but the blinds are about to go through us and AJ is a decent enough hand that can play well against some calling ranges. some players may call off with pairs TT or smaller or even worse Aces. You aren"t that far behind dominating aces or overpairs (unless you run into AA or JJ)

as for the way it played out....I dont think you can raise 30% of your stack and fold and then have the blinds go through you. next thing the blinds are 75/150 and you have 4BBs and are not going to steal much with that..

I feel I should justify my comments to Neil of "Terrible Play" and "Your a muppet"    

We"ve played quite a few of these between us, and discuss strategies for them on a regular basis.  A lot of the time we play, the numbers registered means that there are two seats available on the final table and a bit of minor cash.

In this particular game, there were 3 seats available and $18 for 4th place.  Neil had already got through an initial table of 7 players to get to this point.

The table started off quite cagey, but then everyone seemed to be in a hurry to make moves, and three players were eliminated fairly quickly.  At this point, Neil has hardly played any hands.  Lost minimum with Q8 v Q6 on a xxQ6Q board.  wp sir.

So, we get to this particular hand.  UTG  A J.

Blinds are 50/100

Stack sizes are

4300 - BB
4285
1915
1595
1060 - Neil
965
880 - SB

So, the raise to 300 (30% of his stack) with AJ is clearly asking a question.  IMO, it"s a shove or fold move really, but in shoving, what do you actually want to happen ?

Someone to call with an under pair and you"re racing ?
And ace rag caller, and you dominate ?

Not likely to happen, my thoughts would be that by shoving, you are only ever going to get called by a hand thats beating you, or you pick up the blinds, which at this level is hardly worth the risk.

I quite like Neil"s play with the raise.  He"s got a hand and is testing the water.

The reraise from the other player though should answer the question he has asked.

We very quickly discussed it on Live Messenger.

My comment was, at best you are racing, but more likely you are dominated or have one overcard to a pocket pair.

A fold at this point, still leaves you with 760 chips with blinds at 50/100.  Enough opportunities to make another move and double up.

I"m not suggesting that the fold after the reraise is always the correct move, but when you look at the full circumstances, previous play, stack sizes, payout structure, then it is the right move here.

The funny thing is, it was only last week that Neil was quite rightly having a go at me for wanting to get my chips in and racing to much.  

The "muppet" comment was a little tongue in cheek, as I was more annoyed for him because I think he could outplay the guys on the table and coudl have got away from that hand in that situation.  As he said, after we spoke briefly during the hand, I sat there assuming he was folding it.

My first comment back to him was "What did you do that for ?"    

good discussion [just been reading back through posts posted since my holiday]
i would just like to add that looking into icm/equity strategy for SAT final table sngs maybe beneficial to you,the equity risked here compared to folding is not worth the gain,Leigh/neil have you got a icm calc? congrats on your results up to now.